This week on the If You Market podcast we speak with Lisette Sutherland of Collaboration Superpowers about both managing remote workers and working remotely. Lisette also shares her least favorite video conference software and much more.
Lisette Sutherland is a remote-working German-born American living in the Netherlands who is totally jazzed by the fact that it’s possible to work from anywhere. In fact, it’s not just possible; it’s completely, productively workable – if you do it right. Her company, Collaboration Superpowers, shares just how to do it right in a variety of formats:
Work Together Anywhere: A Handbook on Working Remotely — Successfully — for Individuals, Teams, and Managers- Speaking engagements and webinars
- Work Together Anywhere workshops
- Weekly podcasts featuring interviews with remote-working experts
- Bi-monthly newsletter
- Guest appearances at Pilar Orti’s 21st-Century Work Life podcasts
Lisette has given presentations at a wide range of events, from conferences and Meetups all over the world to a TEDx talk on the theme Unbox the Future in Kaunas, Lithuania. Her workshop clients include Air France, ING, CrossKnowledge (Wiley), Rabobank, and Saint-Gobain. In January 2018, both the Collaboration Superpowers podcast and the 21st-Century Work Life podcast series were deemed among the Best Remote Work Podcasts by Workplaceless. Lisette is also the office manager for the 100 percent remote company Happy Melly, a global professional happiness association dedicated to helping people be happier at work.
Subscribe to the If You Market Podcast on iTunes: www.goo.gl/nfMMtW
Youtube: https://youtu.be/qBsAySrqE6Y
Contact Lisette Sutherland
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisettesutherland/
Website: www.collaborationsuperpowers.com
Book: https://www.collaborationsuperpowers.com/book/
Workshop: https://www.collaborationsuperpowers.com/anywhereworkshop/
Tools for remote Working: www.collaborationsuperpowers.com/remote-resources/
If you have questions about the If You Market podcast or would like to suggest a guest, please email us at info@IfYouMarket.com.
You can subscribe to The If You Market Podcast on apple iTunes or where ever you get your podcasts.
Transcript:
00:10
thank you for listening to the If You
00:13
market podcast I’m your host sky cassidy
00:15
Karla Jo Helms is here with us hello
00:17
hello and today we’ll be talking about
00:19
managing remote workers with Lisette
00:20
Sutherland Lisette is the director of
00:23
collaboration superpowers that’s a
00:25
company that helps people work together
00:27
from anywhere through online and
00:29
in-person workshops she also produces a
00:31
weekly podcast featuring interviews with
00:33
remote working experts highlighting the
00:35
challenges and successes of working with
00:37
virtual teams Lisette thrilled to have
00:39
you on today thanks thanks for having me
00:41
on so this is a really unique subject
00:44
for us we usually talk more about kind
00:46
of hardcore marketing type stuff but
00:47
remote workers I think is a really
00:50
interesting area a lot of marketing
00:52
teams have have them are remote workers
00:54
or there’s a lot of companies nowadays
00:56
that are fully remote so we’re really
00:58
excited to get talking to you about this
01:00
first can you tell us a little bit about
01:02
yourself and a little bit about your
01:04
companies or your company collaboration
01:06
superpowers sure so my name is Lisette
01:09
of course and I’m an American living in
01:11
the Netherlands for the last ten years
01:15
are you living in another one’s just a
01:18
practice remote working or is that where
01:19
the company is located uh no I live
01:22
let’s see myself IIM the company I’m
01:24
sort of a solopreneur and I have a
01:26
franchise model so I have other
01:29
facilitators who pay me a license fee in
01:32
order to be able to give the workshop
01:33
that I developed so it’s sort of one in
01:36
the same I thought maybe a company sent
01:38
you like to Siberia just a practice
01:42
there you know you’re not so far off
01:45
because the reason I’m here was because
01:47
I was living in Los Angeles ten years
01:50
ago and I was working for a company that
01:52
built an online project management tool
01:54
and because we were using an online
01:56
project management tool and everybody
01:58
was you know eating our own dog food
02:00
shall we say we could work from anywhere
02:02
and I sort of had this realization one
02:04
day of like what am i doing in Los
02:06
Angeles and so I decided to venture out
02:09
and see where I’d end up and
02:11
I ended up in the Netherlands that’s
02:13
awesome I did that years ago when I was
02:14
doing sales I worked remotely when all
02:16
over Europe it was amazing when you
02:18
realize wait I can be anywhere why am I
02:20
not in Costa Rica on a beach right now
02:22
exactly most remote workers are they
02:25
working somewhere for that reason or is
02:27
it more of my commutes long some days
02:29
I’ll work from home type of thing you
02:31
know there are there is a small subset
02:33
of people that are digital nomads so
02:35
those are people who are traveling the
02:37
world and working as they travel so
02:40
they’re sort of working to pay for
02:41
expenses along the way but by and large
02:44
most people just want a little bit of
02:46
freedom and either freedom from the
02:49
commute or just freedom to works
02:51
flexible hours freedom to train for
02:54
triathlons and when I talk to people a
02:57
lot of people prefer by-and-large sort
03:00
of a hybrid model of working where they
03:02
spend some time in the office and some
03:04
time working somewhere else sort of
03:06
depending on the task or the mood or
03:08
what they have going on in their lives
03:10
so it’s not like they’re in the
03:12
Netherlands in their rest of their work
03:14
staff is in Los Angeles it’s you know
03:17
they’re in Los Angeles but they spent a
03:18
couple days working at home that’s great
03:21
yeah that’s by and large most people
03:23
really prefer that they like the contact
03:25
of being in the office but really what
03:27
people want is they want to work where
03:28
they’re most productive and sometimes
03:31
that’s at the office with other people
03:32
and sometimes that’s at home or from a
03:35
co-working space or you know Beach some
03:38
people you know like to work from a
03:39
beach although it sounds way more
03:41
glamorous than it is because working
03:43
from a beach you’ve got the Sun and the
03:44
laptop screen and you’ve got you know
03:46
sand that’s not really it’s not that
03:48
great everybody thinks that’s what we’re
03:52
doing I remember when I traveled the
03:54
idea was oh yeah you’d just be bouncing
03:56
around and working in what we found out
03:58
was no you have to have a hotel room or
04:02
an apartment or something you’d sit down
04:03
at a table and focus and work otherwise
04:05
you know you’re not just sitting on the
04:07
bench at the Louvre and doing your work
04:09
it doesn’t work that way
04:10
right right and it also depends on the
04:12
kind of work like for instance I I have
04:14
maybe five or six video calls per day so
04:17
I can’t just be sitting in a public
04:20
space having you know professional calls
04:22
with people I really need to be in a
04:24
I swear I can most of the time it needs
04:27
to be a place where it’s quiet and where
04:29
I don’t have a lot of background noise
04:31
and where I can focus on the people that
04:32
I’m talking to
04:33
alright so sorry I jumped it and cut you
04:36
off you were you were getting into kind
04:39
of what the company does and what you do
04:41
in general yeah so uh collaboration
04:44
superpowers we help people and companies
04:46
work better together remotely and we do
04:49
that through in-person or online
04:51
workshops and so I really recommend when
04:55
people take the workshop that I’ve
04:57
developed called the work together
04:57
anywhere workshop that they do it online
04:59
because you know if you want to learn
05:01
how to work remotely it’s best to do it
05:03
remotely but it’s still sort of a new
05:05
thing and people don’t believe that
05:07
online workshops can be engaging or
05:10
interactive or possible even so I get I
05:13
and my facilitators get flown all over
05:15
the world to give remote working
05:17
workshops in person
05:19
interesting so in person is that out of
05:21
convenience versus doing it remotely I
05:24
think it’s just out of you know they
05:27
think it’s gonna be a webinar or it’s
05:29
gonna be some sort of an on-demand video
05:31
series and they don’t trust that it’s
05:34
going to be as powerful or as yeah as
05:39
good as it is in person
05:40
so now that I’ve done is what if people
05:42
insist that I need to be there in person
05:44
well for one I charge more because these
05:47
can cost a lot more time and energy to
05:49
go somewhere but then I also promote a
05:52
hybrid version of the workshop so we do
05:54
a half-day in person and then we do two
05:57
online session so you actually get a
05:58
chance to experience what a virtual
06:01
office feels like what it’s like to
06:03
teleport to another place you know you
06:05
can sort of get in and push the buttons
06:07
and see what it’s like and how to behave
06:09
online yeah and I guess it seems like
06:11
hey if you’re if you’re pitching these
06:13
people and training them on remote
06:15
working but you’re doing in-person it
06:17
seems odd at first but then you realize
06:19
oh if they’re not sold on remote working
06:22
yet to do that remotely like you kind of
06:25
need to come in person and sell them on
06:26
the next step versus trying to remotely
06:29
sell them on remote might be a bit of a
06:31
step too far I mean do you feint insult
06:33
ever when they say they need you to come
06:35
in person or just charges
06:37
no I just charge borrowed I go in person
06:39
because I really love traveling and I
06:41
love seeing new places so I get to go to
06:43
all kinds of exotic locations every year
06:45
so that’s it works out I would imagine
06:48
that they wouldn’t have a problem paying
06:50
for it I mean you know remote workforce
06:53
for people that aren’t remote work right
06:55
it’s virtual and it’s not very real to
06:59
them I think sometimes the virtual world
07:01
is less real to others because there’s
07:03
not things that you can see and touch
07:06
right so it seems almost
07:09
counterintuitive to have an in-person
07:11
workshop on a remote workforce but I can
07:15
totally see how that would make them
07:17
more comfortable sure and also you know
07:19
the thing is people don’t realize how
07:21
far we’ve come with technology in the
07:23
last five years so many people are still
07:26
using the old conference room
07:28
spider phones or worse Skype for
07:30
business which seems to be prevalent in
07:32
every company and there’s just the worst
07:34
online video conferencing tool and
07:36
people don’t realize that you know
07:38
virtual reality is here and lots of
07:40
remote teams are experimenting with that
07:42
holograms are right around the corner
07:44
you know technology has come a long way
07:47
and it’s time for people to throw out
07:49
the old spider phones and Skype for
07:51
business and check out what’s on the
07:52
market now oh my gosh you’re busting me
07:54
we have 50% remote workforce and we use
07:57
Skype for business I wanna know what is
08:03
better that is such a good point you
08:05
know we have lots of clients and
08:07
companies that are remote and they use
08:09
Skype for business and we always have
08:11
problems but you know I think sometimes
08:15
you keep doing the same thing expecting
08:18
different results I don’t even think HR
08:20
has looked into another tool isn’t that
08:22
odd that’s odd you’re you’re not alone
08:25
most I mean I would say 70% of the
08:28
people that I do workshops for and the
08:30
companies I do workshops for are using
08:31
Skype for business because it comes
08:34
included in Microsoft Office everybody
08:36
its Microsoft teams Microsoft Office and
08:38
then you have Skype for business and why
08:41
would you buy yet another tool if you’ve
08:43
already got coding well what are you
08:45
wrecking in that’s like the number one
08:48
thing I want to know
08:49
there are a couple of tools I mean
08:51
almost anything will be better than
08:52
Skype for business and I’m not just
08:53
saying that I’m really I’m really a
08:55
hater because because it it inhibits
08:59
communication on so many teams and then
09:02
they blame remote working and the tools
09:04
that are better the one that I love the
09:06
most is zoom zoom dot us and there’s
09:09
another one called blue jeans but you
09:11
know even he yeah and even hangouts meet
09:14
or appear in or some of these some of
09:17
the other ones are also better but zoom
09:19
and blue jeans if you use either of
09:21
those tools you’ll be you’ll never go
09:24
back I’ll say that you’ll never go back
09:26
which is your favorite zoom by far I’m
09:29
really happy to hear that because we’re
09:31
getting ready to swap over to zoom I
09:34
think for this podcast real soon we
09:36
evaluated a bunch of conference
09:39
technologies and things for this type of
09:41
a thing and we found zoom although not
09:43
designed for podcast recording we’re
09:45
basically having a remote session here
09:48
together and and we found zoom to be the
09:51
best solution for us out there and why
09:53
do you both think sim is the best
09:55
solution I mean I know that our
09:56
listeners are gonna be asking that as
09:57
well
09:59
zoom for so one of the reasons that
10:02
Skype for business is so bad is it
10:04
because it will the person who has the
10:06
lowest quality bandwidth on the call
10:08
affects everybody else on the call and
10:10
with zoom everybody has a separate line
10:12
so if one person has low bandwidth it
10:15
doesn’t affect anybody else on the call
10:16
I had no idea yeah there’s some other
10:19
technical magic in there that I’m not
10:21
exactly sure why but what I know is when
10:24
I have calls with people for instance in
10:26
in Germany or in eastern Germany Skype
10:28
for business won’t work and zoom will
10:30
with very high quality you can have up
10:33
to 50 people on the call at the same
10:35
time five zero and it that’s got a great
10:38
mobile version so and the price is great
10:41
I think it’s 15 US dollars per month and
10:43
they have a free version and the free
10:45
version only cuts you off after 45
10:47
minutes which most people think is a
10:48
feature rather than you know like a
10:51
limitation right you don’t want a
10:53
meeting going longer than that anyway
10:54
usually exactly you should have to pay
10:58
extra to be cut off at 45 minutes it
11:00
sounds like we just did it well we just
11:02
did a mini commercial first
11:03
but that’s having a good product Wow
11:07
well you know that’s probably a number I
11:09
don’t know if it’s number one but number
11:10
two but I bet they want to know what
11:12
tools do they need to do use to
11:15
communicate measure and run a remote
11:18
workforce I bet that’s one of the the
11:20
biggest questions yeah so let’s say you
11:22
mentioned blue jeans and we talked about
11:24
zoom a little bit are there any other
11:26
technologies that are really useful for
11:28
remote I’m sure there are but can you
11:30
tell us what they are there’s there’s
11:32
there’s tons actually if on my website I
11:34
have a tools page that lists about 400
11:36
or 500 different tools that remote teams
11:38
are using and they’re all categorized so
11:40
you don’t have to like scroll through
11:41
tons and tons of tons of tools but you
11:42
know I would say sort of the minimum
11:44
that you want to have is a great video
11:45
conferencing tool and you want to turn
11:47
on the videos that’s a big thing and
11:49
then you want to have some sort of a
11:50
group group chat tool so that can be
11:53
stride or slack is probably the most
11:56
popular one but you know Salesforce has
11:58
one there’s there’s a bunch of them out
12:00
there and then other things that you
12:02
would want I guess as task tracking
12:04
which most people have but also some way
12:06
of brainstorming so an online sticky
12:08
note board or a whiteboard that you can
12:10
draw on sort of as virtual teams and get
12:12
together and and visualize what you’re
12:14
talking about but that at a minimum is
12:17
pretty much you know after that it’s all
12:18
it all gets fancy there are a lot of
12:21
teams that use virtual offices so it’s
12:24
it’s my favorite tool for that is called
12:26
Satoko Esso co-ceo and it’s basically
12:30
just like what it sounds like it’s an
12:31
office that you go to online and when
12:34
you arrive there you are
12:36
you are looking down into a virtual
12:38
floor plan with a number of different
12:39
offices and you can see where everybody
12:41
is on the virtual floor plan but you can
12:44
only hear and see the people that are in
12:46
the same office as you so you can see
12:48
where everybody is and if you want to go
12:49
to another office you just double click
12:51
and and then you’re in the other office
12:53
so those kind of tools are really great
12:55
for creating presence on a team so you
12:58
don’t have to call somebody and say like
12:59
hey you know sky can you talk next week
13:01
at 2:00 instead you can just knock on
13:04
somebody’s virtual door so it’s like a
13:06
sim life business edition exactly
13:09
exactly used in Sim was so you mentioned
13:14
all the technologies we’ll put those on
13:16
the show notes
13:16
for this episode or will put a link to
13:18
your to your website if you don’t mind
13:20
for all the different tools that people
13:23
use it sounds like you’ve made a
13:25
reference to what’s coming in Holograms
13:27
and stuff like that are we gonna see at
13:29
some point or is there any purpose to
13:31
the stuff you see in movies where
13:32
nobody’s in the room but there’s a bunch
13:34
of holograms looking at each other it is
13:37
really right around the corner I mean in
13:39
fact in 2012 at Coachella
13:42
they made a hologram of Tupac and Tupac
13:45
and Snoop Dogg played together Snoop
13:47
Dogg was there in the flesh and Tupac
13:49
was there as a hologram so the hologram
13:51
technology has been there for for quite
13:53
a long time such a significant bandwidth
13:56
and it’s pretty expensive but now with
13:58
new technology they’ve got 3d cameras
14:00
that are coming out and yeah I mean soon
14:03
I’m I’m thinking within the next year or
14:05
two you’ll be able to beam into a
14:07
conference anywhere in the world and
14:09
actually speak as a hologram on stage
14:11
Wow
14:12
hologram if there’s other live people
14:14
there but what about augmented reality
14:16
or virtual reality just putting on
14:18
glasses to be in a room and everybody
14:20
else is there type of thing yeah that is
14:23
already happening I think most people
14:25
are just really intimidated by virtual
14:27
reality technology because it has been
14:30
hard to use I mean Second Life has been
14:32
around for I don’t know more than 20
14:34
years now and they have tons of people
14:36
using all kinds of university and you
14:39
can take classes in Second Life the
14:41
military uses it for simulations tons of
14:44
people are you know meeting there and
14:46
hanging out together but it is pretty
14:49
hard to move your avatar around and to
14:52
find your way around and so you know
14:54
most I would say
14:55
normal people aren’t really you know
14:58
normal people are still sitting around
14:59
the conference room table with spider
15:00
phones they’re not exploring virtual
15:04
reality because in order for these tools
15:06
to be what our spider from you know
15:08
that’s the conference room phones that’s
15:09
sad they’re like these um yeah I haven’t
15:13
seen one of this her there I didn’t know
15:15
they were called spider phone I don’t
15:17
know what I think I don’t know what
15:19
other name they might be called is that
15:20
the one that looks like the world’s most
15:22
boring throwing star or something like
15:24
that a really old
15:29
you know joystick with the missing stick
15:33
right so we really really want
15:36
person-to-person interaction so bad that
15:39
rather than being on a conference like
15:41
just seeing the people on our screen
15:44
through the the camera on the computer
15:46
is nice and all but we want like
15:49
three-dimensional holograms of people to
15:52
be looking at to communicate that bad
15:55
it’s surprising how powerful presence is
16:00
I mean they have theirs so they have
16:02
these telepresence robots that basically
16:05
you beam in just like you would beam in
16:07
on Skype you know it’s like all in on
16:09
Skype but the difference is they have
16:11
these little robots that sit on the
16:12
table where you can now turn yourself
16:14
from side to side just using the arrow
16:16
keys on your keyboard or you can nod
16:18
your head up and down or left and right
16:20
and those those and those aren’t even
16:22
the drivable ones but they have these
16:24
telepresence robot and that movement
16:26
alone give somebody so much presence in
16:29
a room it really humanizes the person so
16:32
you have videoconferencing is great but
16:34
creating presence is is extremely
16:37
powerful and for some reason as humans
16:39
sight is extremely important and to and
16:43
to feel present with other in the room
16:44
yeah I mean the more powerful it can
16:47
make it I think the better collaboration
16:49
will have I think maybe we feel if we
16:51
can’t shake our head and roll our eyes
16:53
at somebody then it’s not quite a mean
16:56
[Laughter]
17:00
or laughs it’s like you know there is
17:03
there is something about the tangible
17:05
presence of someone right what are the
17:08
reasons that I want to start using zoom
17:11
and I started looking into this is I
17:13
realize this is great the way we’ve been
17:15
doing the podcast for this long but I
17:18
need the video part just to be able to
17:20
see the other people that I’m talking
17:22
with I realize it it adds a whole nother
17:24
dimension we had a co-host that was in
17:26
office at one point and it was so great
17:29
to be able to see each other while we
17:31
were talking and the hand gestures and
17:32
stuff like that and you just lose a lot
17:35
yeah when you can’t see somebody’s even
17:37
just their face when you can’t see
17:38
somebody talking it’s weird how much
17:39
context somehow we get how much you feel
17:42
so much more comfortable
17:43
when you can actually see people I guess
17:45
yeah for sure for sure yeah I mean if
17:49
you can see that somebody wants to speak
17:50
or they’re raising their hand even or
17:52
you can yell when you use visual when
17:54
you use video you can all of a sudden
17:56
use all kind of visuals you know you can
17:57
hold up signs and cards and you know do
18:00
hand gestures and there’s a whole set of
18:02
hand signals that people have developed
18:04
for online meetings oh they have one
18:06
where you hold your hands up and sort of
18:08
shake your hands back and forth they
18:09
call it jazz hands and that’s just to
18:11
show that you’re really agree really
18:13
think you like it we do that what is
18:17
what is the biggest hurdle that
18:19
companies have going remote and what are
18:22
the biggest hurdles they have once they
18:23
actually do it so I’m gonna guess number
18:26
one Skype for business is a huge problem
18:32
no but I would say the number one hurdle
18:33
that people have especially managers
18:35
have is trust
18:36
they don’t trust that people are going
18:38
to do the work there’s sort of this fear
18:41
that if I can’t see you then you’re not
18:43
going to be working and what’s really
18:45
strange is that the opposite tends to be
18:47
true is that people want to work
18:50
remotely because they want to be more
18:52
productive and that when they are
18:55
working from home or when you give them
18:57
the flexibility instead of laziness most
18:59
people suffer from burnout because they
19:02
have a hard time turning off because you
19:04
know we can work from anywhere and
19:06
anytime and so we tend to do that and
19:09
that’s much more of a problem than
19:11
laziness interesting so I have a whole
19:13
series of questions about that because
19:15
when I hear remote workers as somebody
19:17
who has employees when I hear remote
19:18
workers my first thought is okay like
19:22
remote slacker and then I remember
19:23
reading the book 4-hour workweek back in
19:26
the day and what I took away from the
19:28
4-hour workweek was oh this guy has made
19:32
a career out of being a slacker kind of
19:37
what conning companies kind of and he
19:38
wrote a book training people here’s how
19:41
to trick your company into paying you
19:43
while you’re working on something else
19:44
to let you first-first here’s how to I
19:47
mean it was a step-by-step guide to how
19:49
to get out of the office and work
19:51
remotely and then a little more a little
19:53
more and leverage this and now how to do
19:56
the bare minimum amount of
19:57
work and they won’t know it and then how
19:58
to now you can focus on something else
20:00
and have basically your second job that
20:02
they’re fine that’s what the book is
20:03
about and I was just like this is oh my
20:05
god this is a step-by-step guide for how
20:07
to con people and remote working was a
20:09
huge part of it so that was kind of my
20:10
feeling towards remote working was yeah
20:12
this is what people do remote working
20:14
for and I know there’s a ton of
20:16
technologies out there around how to
20:18
make sure remote workers are actually
20:20
working I’ve heard of one where they
20:22
have to like hit a certain key on the
20:24
keyboard every so many seconds it’s like
20:27
the century checking in otherwise
20:28
there’s something wrong kind of and if
20:30
they don’t then they’re not working at
20:32
that time so I guess my feeling and
20:35
probably yeah like you said a lot of
20:36
companies feeling is the distrust of are
20:39
my people actually working if they’re
20:41
working remotely indeed and there’s a
20:43
lot of ways to beside I’m not a fan of
20:47
monitoring I know that there are some
20:49
companies that do like they monitor
20:50
keystrokes or they take a picture of the
20:52
screen every few seconds and I’m not a
20:54
fan of that because I just feel like the
20:57
more you control the less trust that can
21:00
be built there and I find that there’s
21:02
other ways to build that trust and one
21:05
of those ways that that I really
21:08
recommend with every team that I do is I
21:10
say one first create a deliberate plan
21:13
as a manager to facilitate success so
21:16
you know set clear expectations and
21:19
outline what are the results that are
21:21
expected so it’s not like how much time
21:24
you spend on that report but what is
21:25
expected of that report and you know
21:28
what are the results that you’re
21:30
expecting and then the other is create a
21:33
team agreement together as a team which
21:35
outlines you know what kind of
21:37
information you’re going to share how
21:38
you’re going to communicate together and
21:40
how you’re going to know what each other
21:41
are doing so that’s where you can set
21:44
expected response times you know are
21:46
there core hours that you need to be on
21:47
together what are the tools that you’re
21:49
going to use to talk to each other how
21:51
are you going to give each other
21:52
feedback all of those things if you just
21:54
put that together and a team agreement
21:56
can go a long way to one alleviating
21:59
misunderstandings on the team which
22:01
which is really really important to do
22:04
and then the other is as a manager then
22:06
you you know that you’ve set the
22:08
expectations that people know what
22:10
expected of them and that everybody has
22:12
clear understanding you know why I love
22:15
that because you’re getting everyone’s
22:18
agreement it reminds me of a private
22:21
school that my friend’s children went to
22:24
and they had all of the kids in every
22:28
class come up with their own
22:30
anti-bullying rules and the kids had to
22:33
come up with it it wasn’t put down by
22:36
the school you know they came up with
22:38
their own agreement on other rules too
22:40
and the kids followed them right so I
22:43
think of you know this as you get a team
22:46
agreement they come up with it it’s not
22:48
coming from management management
22:49
endorses it it’s probably more likely to
22:52
be followed right oh for sure and also
22:55
it takes away from you know some people
22:56
are email people and some people are
22:58
phone people some people like instant
23:00
message and it really takes away a lot
23:03
of the misunderstandings about how to
23:05
communicate together and I think what
23:06
you said was really important it’s not
23:09
something that comes from the manager
23:11
it’s something that the team sits down
23:13
and has a conversation about and agrees
23:15
on and then when something goes awry and
23:17
somebody’s not following protocol then
23:19
you could just say like hey I thought we
23:20
agreed like this was the behavior that
23:22
we are going to to establish on our team
23:25
like what’s going on so it’s not finger
23:27
pointing anymore it’s more like pointing
23:28
towards the agreement and saying I
23:30
thought we had a misunderstanding like
23:32
what’s going so brilliant is that what
23:35
you do in your class and your online
23:36
yeah that is that’s the first module of
23:39
the workshop is we actually created an
23:40
agreement together for how we’re gonna
23:42
behave in the workshop like where are we
23:43
gonna store the files how are we gonna
23:45
talk to each other you know do we use
23:47
Google Drive or do we use Dropbox or do
23:49
we use slack or do you guys want to use
23:50
emails and sort of we just go through
23:52
and build it for the for the duration of
23:55
the workshop that is some real Jedi
23:58
mind-trick stuff and it I just kind of
24:01
blew my mind a little bit to say why am
24:04
I not doing that overall more really I
24:08
know oh yeah when you have people create
24:11
the solution themselves they actually
24:13
follow through with it they own it we’ve
24:15
seen many people where they struggle
24:17
struggle struggle we give them more
24:19
responsibility make them the boss and
24:22
suddenly they’re really good hard
24:23
workers
24:23
you know they own it that’s uh that’s
24:25
awesome yeah they’ll write they’ll write
24:27
rules that make sense to them right
24:29
they’re not gonna write rules that are
24:30
that are restrictive or are going to
24:32
work against them they’re gonna write
24:33
rules that make sense for the team that
24:35
they’re on and you’ve hired
24:36
professionals so assuming that these are
24:39
professionals you know with skills that
24:41
you’ve hired then I’d say for leaders
24:43
we’ve got a we’ve got to kind of go from
24:45
command and control and instead set the
24:50
goals as leaders set the path in the
24:51
direction and then allow the
24:53
professionals to have the autonomy to go
24:55
there in the way that they see best yeah
24:58
it really is getting people’s agreement
25:00
plus you know they kind of would look
25:02
like a pariah if they said no no no I’m
25:05
not in agree I don’t want to do that I
25:10
wanted to do it for the best of me the
25:13
most effective communication I would be
25:16
hard-pressed to go against it right so
25:19
you said let’s say you said that you’re
25:20
the the monitoring of workers is
25:23
something you’re generally against you
25:26
feel that the this the slacker isn’t
25:29
really the archetype of the person
25:31
that’s that’s looking to work remotely
25:33
or works remotely those things all sound
25:35
exactly like what the poster child for
25:38
remote working would say suspiciously is
25:42
there a situation where you think
25:43
monitoring is necessary we’re I mean
25:46
we’re a company I know the bosses are
25:49
all paranoid that everybody is trying to
25:50
steal work for them and from them and
25:52
whatnot and we want everyone running in
25:54
place when they’re not doing something
25:56
productive but I’m sure there is a
25:59
percentage of people that want to do
26:03
remote working and they really want to
26:04
just kind of work a couple hours a day
26:06
and slack off and and whatnot
26:08
how do you find and eliminate and
26:11
identify those and what do you do about
26:13
them well so there are circumstances for
26:17
monitoring where I’ve thought like okay
26:19
I can see that and that’s you know if a
26:21
company is brand-new to remote working
26:23
or to having remote workers or
26:24
outsourcing at all it can help alleviate
26:27
the managers or leadership spheres and
26:30
so starting out with monitoring just to
26:32
see I can understand I mean if that’s
26:36
that’s what’s getting in the way of even
26:38
trying it trying outsourcing or trying
26:40
in a Viet then I would think like okay
26:42
start with it and see with how it goes
26:43
but people that tend to be over
26:47
controlled it’s it just doesn’t there’s
26:50
just it doesn’t build an environment for
26:53
trust right so it’s typically like
26:56
you’ll you’ll throw it out there you say
26:57
okay if you really feel like you need
26:59
that then we’ll do it just to make you
27:01
feel comfortable type of lipping yeah I
27:04
mean as a last resort if it’s if it’s
27:06
really the one thing that’s in the way
27:07
but you know there’s gonna be the George
27:09
Costanza Zinn any any business so there
27:13
and if they’re late if you think they’re
27:14
gonna be lazy at home they’re probably
27:16
lazy at the office too and they’re
27:18
figuring out some ways to to work to
27:21
game the system there’s always going to
27:23
be a couple people by always calling
27:25
them a George Costanza is that something
27:27
that you came up with her is that common
27:29
industry jargon oh no I just
27:31
I assume that everybody knows Seinfeld
27:33
and George is always sorry just assumed
27:35
everybody I love that there’s somebody
27:46
trying to like you know build the alarm
27:48
clock under their desk somewhere yeah
27:51
but I would say if you said if you go
27:54
results-oriented it’s actually a lot
27:56
harder for people to be lazy because if
27:58
you’re result-oriented instead of time
28:00
oriented then everybody’s looking for
28:02
you need to produce the results and if
28:04
you have sufficient feedback loops in
28:06
place then it should be very clear to
28:08
your team who’s producing results and
28:10
who’s not you know I was so embarrassed
28:12
about Skype for business but I will tell
28:15
you that I am NOT embarrassed that we do
28:17
do that we measure people on production
28:20
and their output we met you know managed
28:23
by statistics and they love it but you
28:26
know what if they get their work done
28:27
you know they’re done if they don’t
28:29
they’re not but they’re held accountable
28:31
to their peers and we don’t really mark
28:33
the time it does work and absolutely
28:36
works well I find that it puts the
28:38
motivation in a better place because
28:40
it’s not like okay I have 8 hours to do
28:42
this or you know I have to do this mark
28:44
marketing report and I’ve got 40 hours
28:46
okay so I’ve got to stay if I’m working
28:48
in the office I’ll stay sitting there
28:49
for 4
28:50
the hours just because I get paid for
28:51
sitting there but I mean you kind of
28:53
want the employee who can write the
28:54
marketing report in nine hours if
28:56
possible and then have other time for
28:59
other words like you want to motivate
29:00
people to to produce results and not on
29:04
how long it’s going to take them you
29:06
know you want that person that’s gonna
29:08
write it quicker yeah that’s yeah most
29:11
bosses say if you could finish it twice
29:13
as fast then I’ll give you twice as much
29:14
work right bonus is based off of being
29:23
you know there’s statistic being up or
29:25
you know up stat we kind of coin it you
29:29
know that makes the producers really
29:31
want to work hard yeah excellent I want
29:33
to take a quick break here let’s add
29:34
sorry to cut you off if you could think
29:36
about this for after the break I’d be
29:38
interested in knowing if you have any
29:39
numbers on the percentage of companies
29:41
that use remote workers what the remote
29:44
working kind of situation how it’s
29:46
changed over the last handful of years
29:48
what not so we’re gonna take a really
29:50
quick break and then we’ll be right back
29:52
with Lisette Sutherland of collaboration
29:55
and superpowers and I’m talking about
29:57
remote working hey this is Patrick
30:01
McFadden founder at indispensable
30:04
marketing if you’re a professional
30:06
service provider or a b2b business owner
30:09
and you’re struggling to attract your
30:11
best clients and also charge a premium
30:14
for your service I think you should
30:16
really check out our website at
30:18
indispensable marketing com to find some
30:21
great resources there and if you want to
30:23
reach out just pick our free
30:24
consultation button alright welcome back
30:29
from the break this is Skye Cassidy I’m
30:31
your host on the if you market podcast
30:33
I’ve got our co-host Carla Joe Helms
30:36
here with us hi there and we are
30:38
speaking with Lisette Sutherland of the
30:41
collaboration superpowers company about
30:43
managing remote workers and basically
30:45
everything remote workers so Lisette
30:48
before the break I’d mentioned I’ve
30:49
mentioned any stats you might have any
30:52
information you might have on the growth
30:53
the popularity of remote working that
30:55
kind of stuff can you speak to that a
30:56
little we’ll all be very general and
30:59
just say a lot of people are working
31:02
round
31:03
I don’t know the stats are in the first
31:05
chapter of the book there’s a lot of
31:08
stats there on why people are working or
31:10
you know the percentages and who and and
31:12
how many but really suffice it to say
31:15
that there’s a lot of people doing it
31:16
and it’s on the rise and it’s only going
31:18
to be more and more on the rise as the
31:20
technology increases and makes it more
31:22
possible right right so one thought I
31:26
was having on it is remote working seems
31:28
to be really cool right now like the
31:31
really cool companies the everybody
31:33
wants to work here we’re such a cool
31:35
company to work for places are all I
31:38
mean there’s 100% remote workforce
31:40
companies Carla Joe you guys are super
31:42
cool cuz I know you guys have a remote
31:44
workforce is there any chance this is a
31:48
fad like the open office space that
31:51
basically is getting pushed by Silicon
31:53
Valley and they’re saying look how cool
31:54
we are it’s an open office space one
31:56
really they just got a hangar to work
31:57
out of because it was cheap and
31:59
everybody wants to have a cubicle so
32:01
they aren’t constantly bothered by all
32:03
the office noise or is this is this
32:04
legit okay well for I’m very biased I
32:11
thought that was a gotcha question I was
32:13
waiting for you say you go it’s a fad
32:17
because I think the reason why it’s not
32:20
a fad is one it offers people freedom
32:23
and I think that’s really a powerful
32:26
motivator so just you know the freedom
32:28
to avoid the commute the freedom to care
32:31
for your elderly parents or your
32:33
children or their to train for triathlon
32:35
or you know whatever it is and for
32:37
companies also the freedom to hire
32:39
people that are not necessarily in the
32:41
same city there’s lots of software
32:44
development companies out there that are
32:45
needing other software developers but
32:47
they can’t find them in the local region
32:50
where their headquarters are so they
32:52
have to go and find people or I mean
32:55
even the caller ID removes obstacles
32:57
or the cost savings I’m a developer in
32:59
San Francisco cost significantly more
33:02
than a developer in Vietnam and that’s
33:04
revenue companies can’t ignore so I
33:07
don’t think it’s a fad and especially
33:09
when the technology especially when
33:10
Skype for business goes out of business
33:12
and the other
33:13
we’re using real technology there’s no
33:16
reason we should come to the office I am
33:19
selling all my stock in science
33:20
companies now I hope that’s not insider
33:23
trading or candidates for you know to be
33:28
employees they also recognize that there
33:32
is a quality of life factor and they’re
33:34
willing to take you know a bit lower
33:37
salary for having remote working you
33:41
know they’re not spending the miles in
33:42
their car they’re not spending the gas
33:44
they’re not spending the time you know
33:47
the mileage and so forth and the time
33:49
and the traffic that’s what I found as
33:51
well so you have people that are willing
33:53
to you know work all around the u.s. or
33:56
maybe even the country that are in
33:59
different areas where the cost of living
34:02
is different oh yeah and then there’s a
34:05
recent Gallup poll actually where it
34:06
said 60% of the people said that they
34:09
would leave their current job if they
34:10
could find another job that offered
34:13
flexibility and even with a lower pay
34:15
wow that’s quite a stat so it’s
34:18
something that really it is a huge perk
34:21
of flexibility yeah and the commuting I
34:23
mean I live in LA and when we’re looking
34:26
at people we have a really hard time
34:27
keeping people that are outside of a
34:30
certain range and I asked Keith all the
34:33
time he can is that something and they
34:35
said no we can’t ask that when hiring we
34:36
can’t ask where they live we can’t ask I
34:38
said there’s got to be a line what we
34:40
can ask like can we ask if they live in
34:42
the state well we do know I I mean how
34:46
is it they don’t know we get to know HR
34:49
just says there’s certain things you’re
34:50
not allowed to to ask or take into
34:52
consideration that’s probably
34:54
consideration also California is pretty
34:57
pretty rough with this stuff I don’t
35:00
know yeah discriminate against somebody
35:01
geographically my point to them was can
35:05
we not hire them because they don’t live
35:07
in this state it seems like what about
35:09
this country there’s got to be a
35:11
geographic line where you’re allowed to
35:12
say sorry you’re too far away it doesn’t
35:14
work for the job and in Los Angeles that
35:17
line is you know if you’re if you’re
35:20
more than 20 miles away the commutes
35:23
gonna be too long and you’re not going
35:25
to last we’re gonna go find another job
35:27
eventually
35:27
because commuting is just too much of a
35:30
pain it’s not worth it for certain
35:32
positions high-level positions people
35:34
will commute a little bit more maybe but
35:35
it’s just so difficult like you’re
35:38
saying what’s that to get talent and to
35:41
get the people you need sometimes
35:42
because just of commute issues so yeah
35:44
people can remote work even part-time
35:46
remote work it opens up so many more
35:49
people for you to hire we were scared to
35:51
death Amazon was going to come to LA
35:53
because we’re gonna have to change our
35:55
business plan we wouldn’t be able to
35:56
hire anybody in so many positions
35:58
anymore so it’s yeah remote working
36:02
opening yourself up gia Grazia
36:04
graphically the talent everywhere is
36:05
that’s a that’s a big deal yeah it’s
36:08
huge they have to say this quote that I
36:10
came across it says a bad commute can
36:12
ruin a great job that needs to be a
36:18
bumper sticker yeah imagine being behind
36:22
the car that has that on their bumper oh
36:28
yeah I just came back from South Paulo
36:30
Brazil and the traffic there is
36:33
incredible it’s nothing it’s nothing
36:35
like I mean if you think it’s something
36:37
similar to Los Angeles but because their
36:39
infrastructure is not so well built up
36:42
there you’ve got this old infrastructure
36:43
and just millions of cars and it is
36:46
crazy people commute many people at the
36:48
office that I was visiting there many
36:50
people commute two to three hours each
36:51
way per day I was just picturing traffic
36:55
was terrible because there’s constant
36:57
parades and women with feathers coming
36:58
off of there and walking through streets
37:00
like that okay Wow why is the traffic
37:07
terrible now it’s another parade okay
37:10
some more statistics from that book of
37:12
yours and also mention the book a little
37:18
more we haven’t really talked about that
37:19
at all well haven’t note of it in the in
37:21
the notes for the this episode of course
37:25
but can you tell us about the book yeah
37:28
in general yeah so what’s called work
37:32
together anywhere and it’s a handbook on
37:34
working remotely successfully for
37:36
individuals teams and managers and I
37:39
wrote it from the three different person
37:41
Viv’s because i felt that one you know
37:44
individuals if they’re just starting to
37:45
work remote what is it that they need to
37:47
know you know teams have another set of
37:49
issues and then managers have another
37:51
set of issues but instead of writing
37:53
three separate books for each separate
37:55
audience my theory and my sort of my
37:57
philosophy when writing this was it
37:59
makes us stronger to know the other’s
38:01
perspective so if you’re an individual
38:04
and you’re trying to figure out you know
38:06
what is it that your manager is looking
38:08
for in a remote worker then you can just
38:10
go to the management section and see
38:12
what it is that managers are struggling
38:14
with and what are they trying to do and
38:15
as managers you know if you’re trying to
38:17
understand you know how individual
38:19
workers you would go to the individual
38:20
section that’s our you know to be better
38:23
informed about each other sort of helps
38:25
us communicate and so that’s sort of the
38:27
where the book was written from so
38:30
people are getting three books for the
38:31
price of one oh yeah and a huge
38:33
resources section I mean a third of the
38:35
book is just resources tools people you
38:39
know thinking things other books that
38:41
you can read about it so it’s it’s just
38:43
sort of a yeah it’s a it really is a
38:45
handbook I would say I didn’t intend it
38:48
didn’t start this way but it did end up
38:50
this way in the introduction I think was
38:52
written by Skype is that right podcast
38:59
errors you never hear from me again you
39:00
know where to look
39:01
just now we know why you’re in the
39:06
Netherlands okay no I was really honored
39:11
I’m the the forward of the book was
39:13
written by a guy named Jurgen apollo’
39:15
who was a management guru and he sort of
39:17
been a mentor of mine for the last few
39:18
years he wrote a book called management
39:20
3.0 and another book called managing for
39:22
happiness and I am the remote office
39:24
manager on one of his teams that he
39:27
started so I felt like it’s really you
39:29
know it’s really easy to get up on stage
39:31
or to write these books and then just to
39:32
say like here’s how you do it and if you
39:35
want to solve conflict on a remote team
39:37
well here’s the three things you should
39:38
do and I found that actually being a
39:40
remote office manager keeps me very
39:43
humble because you have to deal with
39:45
these personality conflicts and the
39:47
weird things that come up and it makes
39:49
it just I don’t know it just sort of
39:51
instills in me a sense of humility when
39:53
I’m on stage and
39:54
you’re giving workshops in that like it
39:56
sounds really easy in the steps for
39:58
working remotely are pretty simple like
40:01
it’s not rocket science you know you’re
40:02
not you I didn’t have to you know I
40:04
don’t have to be super smart or anything
40:06
to do any of this stuff but it does you
40:09
do have to you do have to do it now in
40:13
the in the perks of remote working do
40:16
you ever list things like you know how
40:18
Steve at the office is always cooking
40:20
eggs and broccoli in the microwave or
40:23
burning popcorn and stuff like that you
40:25
know is that one of the perks listed
40:27
does that register up there like the
40:29
person with a bad body hygiene keeps
40:34
getting stolen by somebody all those
40:36
office politics yeah it does get a
40:39
mention it does get a mention it’s not a
40:40
huge engine but yeah there are a lot of
40:42
perks though because you know our we
40:44
don’t get to choose our colleagues
40:45
necessarily but we spend a tremendous
40:47
amount of time with them and sometimes
40:50
it’s better to work with people at a
40:52
distance and when we get along with them
40:54
even you know a little bit better if
40:55
they’re just sort of at arm’s length
40:56
that’s not always the case I would say
40:58
the best remote teams are are the ones
41:01
that really they not only are
41:03
professionals but they enjoy working
41:04
together and they actively seek each
41:06
other out there’s something magic about
41:08
the kind of a team do you ever see a
41:10
team when everybody raises their hand
41:12
just says remote working sounds great
41:13
can we send this person remote the
41:22
person that doesn’t get something done
41:24
and you really don’t want that person
41:26
I’m sure it exists
41:28
clearly it’s out there so the set if you
41:32
are the poster child for remote
41:35
workforces do you have a nemesis is
41:39
there somebody on the other side is
41:41
there another camp that’s pushing hard
41:42
to say remote working is a terrible idea
41:45
nobody should do it that kind of thing
41:47
okay I’m going to talk about people
41:49
coming after me and I mean negative when
41:54
you guys see each other at conventions
41:56
you don’t have to go you know get into a
41:59
Fight Club or something like that well
42:02
so there is an article that came out in
42:04
May 2017 and
42:06
was by Patrick Lencioni who of course is
42:09
a famous author and he wrote this
42:11
article entitled you know remote teams I
42:15
have to remember what the article
42:17
basically said remote teams can’t work
42:20
like don’t do it it’s the truth is
42:22
virtual teams can work but they often
42:24
don’t is his conclusion for that and
42:26
since he’s such a famous author
42:27
you know everybody pointed towards this
42:30
article and said aha see you know
42:32
Patrick Lencioni says you can’t do it
42:34
and of course IBM famously brought all
42:36
people back to the office after having
42:38
remote workers out there it was another
42:40
tech giant that did that was it Yahoo
42:43
Yahoo also did it yeah yeah and I
42:47
understand I mean I have to say you know
42:49
I’m not trying to argue where the remote
42:51
is better than in person for me the far
42:54
more interesting question is if you have
42:55
to be remote for one reason or another
42:57
and there’s always you know the kids are
42:59
sick at home bad commute you know
43:01
transportation problems whatever it is
43:05
it’s you know what do we do if we have
43:08
to be remote then what and that’s I
43:11
think a far more interesting question
43:12
because whether you like IBM and Yahoo
43:15
they both had very legitimate reasons
43:17
for bringing their people back to the
43:18
office it was what their company needed
43:20
at the time and so I brought him back
43:22
but I bet you they still have remote
43:24
workers workers they just had a massive
43:27
force and they’ve done a big push maybe
43:29
and they realized oh we just kind of did
43:31
it to do it maybe we should pull this
43:33
back a little well and also they would
43:34
have lost a significant amount of their
43:36
top talent if they didn’t allow
43:38
exceptions to that absolutely but you
43:41
know businesses some businesses need to
43:43
be in person for certain phases of their
43:45
their business and some people you know
43:47
at some point you can go remote it
43:49
really depends on the business so I my
43:52
my focus is more if you have to be
43:55
remote then what do you do because I
43:57
think that’s just far more interesting
43:58
but I wish I could meet Patrick Lencioni
44:01
I mean I I respect him very much as an
44:03
author I just thought that that article
44:06
was very damaging she’s saying he writes
44:08
good but his ideas are just bad well his
44:10
idea on this way his experience was I
44:13
would say he should have read my book
44:14
first before coming to his conclusion
44:17
not be listening to him anymore
44:20
because we have a large percentage of
44:22
our population or remote workforce and
44:25
it’s growing and growing so they’re
44:26
probably kind of he’s that statistic is
44:28
debunking him as it goes along so now I
44:31
would say let’s say have you read his
44:33
book yes I’ve read it but it’s been a
44:36
while okay
44:38
so now I think you guys need to get into
44:40
a Twitter fight and settle it
44:42
but because it was going to say maybe
44:44
you know he needs to read your book to
44:46
understand your side I feel frequently
44:48
when people feel they’re on different
44:50
sides really they’re actually close to
44:52
each other it’s just the wording you use
44:54
in the headline seems to create two
44:57
separate camps where it’s remote
44:59
workings bad remote workings good when
45:00
it probably he’s saying there should be
45:02
a lot less and you’re saying there
45:03
should be a lot more and you guys might
45:05
be a couple percentages away and how
45:07
much remote working you think there
45:08
should be I’m sure that we could have an
45:15
intelligent discussion around the pros
45:17
and cons and his experiences I’m sure
45:20
that something good would come of it
45:22
it’s just whitterfly it would still be
45:24
fun anyway thank you for letting us put
45:30
you on the spot with that one so you
45:33
guys can still remain professional with
45:36
each other when he comes to the Oh is
45:38
there a remote working conferences does
45:41
that make sense
45:45
no more remote and some are not there’s
45:47
like you know there’s one coming up in
45:48
Bali soon so they’re you know they’re
45:50
picking these beautiful places and I
45:52
would say you know for conferencing and
45:54
for networking there are a number of
45:56
different formats that people are trying
45:57
there’s nothing that replaces being
46:00
in-person you know sharing a bowl of
46:02
nachos and some beers together there is
46:04
nothing online at the moment that
46:06
replaces that kind of virtual mafia
46:09
getting drunk at a conference in your
46:11
living room is just depressing and sad
46:17
on the other hand you know I attended a
46:20
conference in Las Vegas via robot I was
46:22
in my living room in the Netherlands and
46:24
my friend Kristin was from Vancouver and
46:27
she attended the same conference in a
46:29
robot and say
