Brand or Bland?
This week on the If You Market podcast we talk with Dan Nelken about humor in copywriting. We talk about the merits of comedy and Dan gives us 6 specific techniques for using humor in your copywriting. We also discuss Jack in the Box, Progressive Insurance, Laffy Taffy, the Lone Ranger, company personality, and One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest. It’s a perfect combination of humor and technique, it’s peanut butter and <fill in your favorite thing that goes with peanut butter>.
Dan Nelken is the “Chief Creative Ding-Dong” at Nelken Creative. He’s a freelance copywriter and creative director in Vancouver, Canada. His work has appeared in award shows nationally, internationally, and on his mother’s fridge. He has worked for some of the most creative ad agencies in Canada, some of the world’s largest brands, and for start-ups who have collectively gone on to raise billions. He has an above average sense of humor and he’s an expert copywriter.
P.S. Dan didn’t write this, it would have been better if he did.
Contact : Dan Nelken
- Website: http://www.nelkencreative.com
- Dan on Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dannelken/
- Dan’s tribute to Norm MacDonald
- Get Dan’s Book, A Self Help Guide for Copywriters
If you have questions about the If You Market podcast or would like to suggest a guest, please email us at info@IfYouMarket.com.
Listen wherever you get podcasts:
Transcript:
Sky
00:00:26 – 00:00:56
Alright, good morning marketers and welcome to the, if you market podcast brought to you by Mountaintop Data and joe topi are we are the only podcast that markets the ship out of it. I’m sky Cassidy and today we’ll be talking with dan Nelken of Nelken, creative about humor in copyrighting one of my favorite subjects. I went and hunted dan down. I love this subject. I’m so happy. We’ve, we’ve mentioned it in past episodes but we’ve never really had somebody that could
Sky
00:00:56 – 00:01:21
dig into this the way the way I plan on doing with dan today. So dan’s worked with some of the most creative ad agencies in Canada, we can insert like the right there and some of the world’s largest brands and he’s worked for startups that have raised billions I believe billions of dollars and uh we’re really happy to have you on day today dan, thanks.
Dan Nelken
00:01:21 – 00:01:31
Oh man, I’ve been looking forward to it. So and looking forward to this chat for sure. And uh one of my favorite subjects, I think it should be fun.
Sky
00:01:31 – 00:01:56
Yeah, that’s the whole point, right, It’s more things should be fun. I um started proselytizing. I do not know how long ago on this show that marketing departments need to have a comedian on staff. They’re so cheap like they’re going out and doing open mic nights and it’s like if you offer them five bucks a joke, they’ll probably right for you.
Dan Nelken
00:01:56 – 00:02:32
Um There’s so many parallels like good stand up comics and good copyrighting. Um I think, you know people, I think when I started my career too, I think I thought funny was doing something no one had ever like thought of or something way out there. But when you realize it’s just human truths, it’s just observations on human truths. And I think the best marketing when you’re selling a product is finding the truth related to your product and your product category and that’s what comedians do so well they take the every day and they twist it, it’s not, they’re not inventing new truths there just because I think we wouldn’t laugh if it wasn’t relatable in some
Sky
00:02:32 – 00:02:48
way and they typically distill it down, which in copyrighting, you can’t have a five page funny story like sorry, but keep it to a tweet kind of do a haiku and make it funny. But the comedians are good at that. They only get a couple of jokes sometimes.
Dan Nelken
00:02:48 – 00:03:06
Yeah, they don’t have much time and think of punch punch lines. It’s the same way you want to structure your writing whether it’s a joke or whatever you want to emphasize. You want to move it to the end of your sentence in writing doesn’t always have to be funny, but that’s what comics do. Well I think we could learn a ton from them.
Sky
00:03:06 – 00:03:45
So I think the episode’s done, Go hire a stand up, go down to your local open mic night and offer somebody a a job, get a, get a stand up on staff the end. Uh So, so humor and copyrighting. Um a lot of people think they’re funny and then they try to write copy or they’re putting out stuff and it can either be offensive or it can be just not land with anybody. Or they think they’re funny because they are really into ponds and it doesn’t necessarily help the marketing. Um Where where do you want to start? I guess with this with this topic of humor and copyrighting.
Dan Nelken
00:03:45 – 00:04:18
Well, I think we can talk about, especially the last few years uh brands have been taking themselves way too seriously. Um and I think it’s kind of like uh it’s a weapon and you kind of go against the grain. And I think the point of all marketing and advertising is to to stand out. There’s a, there’s a great line by a guy. He, I don’t know if he still works there, but he used to work for Officemax and he said all advertising is unwanted. So if you were going to crash the party, you better bring champagne.
Sky
00:04:18 – 00:04:21
All advertising is spam. I like that.
Dan Nelken
00:04:21 – 00:04:28
It is. I mean I think even people who work in marketing and advertising and we’re not, we’re skipping ads on Youtube. So the reason
Sky
00:04:28 – 00:04:57
we have content, the lone ranger was created because you didn’t want to watch the soap ads. If the soap ads were awesome, you wouldn’t get the content. You just get the ads. But yeah, nobody really wants them. So I’m going to disagree with you a little bit. I think, um, you say brands have gone like serious. I think they’ve gone kind of what they’ve split and gone one direction or the other because I think some brands, some of the best commercials on tv are formerly boring
Sky
00:04:57 – 00:05:30
products that realized they were boring. So some brands have gone. Um, and frequently it’s a, they followed the why and said, well now we need to have some sort of greater cause. And so that’s going to be our super boring commercial about nothing about our product or our clients or anything like that. And the other brands, the super boring products. Insurance is a huge one. Like they have all exploded in the humor direction and now they’re all, their commercials are just like, we’ll make a joke and then thing throw up our, our insurance logo.
Dan Nelken
00:05:30 – 00:05:58
Well, I think, I mean that says two things to me. There’s a lot of funny copywriters out there. I think there’s a lot of brands who don’t go there or too afraid to go there. Um, and that I think, you know, brands like that are recognizing there’s real opportunity in doing this, but I guess I was more referencing like through Covid and politics that have dominated headlines just felt like every brand, I felt the need to comment on that. I was like, I don’t want that from you
Sky
00:05:58 – 00:06:21
and that’s a serious why I would say. But progressive insurance, I haven’t seen, you know, they make these funny all the insurance companies basically. Yeah, I just said let’s go the humor route, which is probably a lot more appreciated than the yeah, the constant. Like I don’t need to know where my breakfast cereal stands on these great world issues. Just try not to poison me with sugar.
Dan Nelken
00:06:21 – 00:06:30
Yeah, provide value in some way. And then humor’s one way to do that instead of just talking about yourself, which a lot of brands of all sizes too.
Sky
00:06:30 – 00:06:56
i t seems like humor though can be dangerous in that. I mean a lot of big brands probably would never, They’re not willing to go the human route because there’s a committee of 50 people that have to approve the commercial and you can’t really get a bunch of people to agree on humor. You kind of have to take one person and trust them and say, right the joke. If you do, everybody write one word of the joke. It’s no joke.
Dan Nelken
00:06:56 – 00:07:24
No, no, I know. I think, I think one problem with with big brands. I’d say all brands is they think everybody needs to laugh at the joke when They would rather throw something that made 50% of their audience laugh Like just throw it out because it doesn’t hit 100%. But I mean it’s like choosing a restaurant, Like it can be hard with one person to pick a restaurant. You love, you add 20 people that you’re gonna end up in a very bland place.
Sky
00:07:24 – 00:07:59
Right? Right. So Geico has a strategy where, and I think they may have kind of originated and everybody followed them with the human route and an insurance market, but they seem to do it really well and that it almost seems like they say let’s have 10 writers and each one has their own piece of property and comes up with the concept that they own and they can flush out because yeah, everyone has their least favorite and most favorite Geico commercial. It’s like I hate that one. I hate that one, hate that one. Oh, this one’s good. Like that’s all they’re really looking for is in any marketing message. I see that with standard messaging, forget the humor. People will think this message has to
Sky
00:07:59 – 00:08:11
Get everyone and I say no, no, no make 20 messages and this one gets, if they each get, you know, 2% of your audience, then you got 40% of the audience that likes the message eventually.
Dan Nelken
00:08:11 – 00:08:22
Yes. I think every piece of communication is like a brick and you can’t look at one and be like, well this flops. Um let’s change direction. Like
Sky
00:08:22 – 00:08:38
This only got us a couple of deals. What about the other 98% of the potential market? Well make another. Mm hmm. So humor can miss and still hit as long as it hits with somebody.
Dan Nelken
00:08:38 – 00:09:25
Yeah, I think so. And as long as it’s not offending anyone. Yeah. Even I was looking, I had, I have a newsletter which maybe we’ll talk about later or it’s in the show notes. That but at one point I had a subject line that said when Karen’s attack and uh, you know, I thought it was kind of funny and I was going to go into like, you know, I I looked into it just to research because it was something as much as I thought it was funny and it’s something like 35 years ago there were 40,000 people born or named Karen. There was like 600 or something last year. On top of that, the amount of bullying of young girls named Karen. So I was just like,
Dan Nelken
00:09:25 – 00:09:53
I can’t do it. And I actually, someone had messaged me another writer and said they liked that newsletter and said something about the subject line. I said, oh, this is the other one. And they were like, oh, you should have gone with that. And uh, it was funnier I think. But when I gave him that information, he was like a good call. Uh, So yeah, I think that’s like you have to be, especially as brands, you are a target bigger you are, the bigger the target and you have to be responsible with, with your humor.
Sky
00:09:53 – 00:09:57
And by the way, this episode is sponsored by Dave Chappelle and Netflix.
Dan Nelken
00:09:57 – 00:09:59
There we go. Yeah, I
Sky
00:09:59 – 00:10:08
felt I felt I had to had to mention that. So go ahead and send us a cease and desist. Obviously that was a joke.
Dan Nelken
00:10:08 – 00:10:11
So,
Sky
00:10:11 – 00:10:42
so getting in. I mean there’s the general convincing people, hey, try using humor and then there’s the actual, oh wait, try using humor. Like you gotta come up with a concept you got to come up with. So I feel like there’s two ways to approach it may be and that’s add a little humor to your existing copyrighting. And then there’s come up with a humorous concept for a campaign. Um, do you have a preference in those two areas that they don’t have the they they have their own place. How would you go about that?
Dan Nelken
00:10:42 – 00:10:56
Wow. I think it’s hard to just write funny, you know, I think for most people, uh, I mean the people who don’t know who think they’re funny and aren’t funny, they have no problem with,
Dan Nelken
00:10:56 – 00:11:39
it’s really easy. Um I think, you know, you kind of need a reason for being your brand. You do have to know your brand. You have two opportunities. The opportunities where you can be funny, what are you against? What are your values as a brand? Um who are your enemies? Which maybe we get into in this. If I share some examples later. Um all of that will be like fodder and you’ll just kind of be a radar on for these observations. So I think any any writing, you don’t start with writing and sitting down. I’m gonna write some jokes. You do come up with observations and insights and you start thinking first and then you have some material to work with.
Dan Nelken
00:11:39 – 00:12:16
It probably comes out pretty straight at first and then you have to like craft it and you get better at it. You know, you don’t walk into the gym and see someone lifting some serious weight and try and do it and say oh I’m not strong um I think it’s the same people start to write or be creative. Nothing happens within eight seconds and they start to panic and you know the inner critic kicks in and they’re like well I guess I’m not creative and yeah, yes, I’m terrible. Uh Yeah, but yeah it does, it doesn’t work that way. You do get better at it. But I think uh you know if you know you’re not good uh hire a copywriter that could that would help
Sky
00:12:16 – 00:12:57
get a stand up comic. You know again you’re not going to somebody’s name, you recognize. But you know even the guys who are no one knows who they are yet and they’re at the local deli smoker doing stand up night, um, can probably punch some stuff up with a little humor. But what about, I think I’m gonna put it in my profile and put it in yours and, and hopefully again all the lawsuits are going to abound from humor. But um, I think I’m gonna start declaring that I am a writer for Laffy Taffy writing for Laffy Taffy because they have the best jokes. If you read a Laffy taffy joke, it’s like A collection of all the worst like four year old jokes you’ve ever,
Dan Nelken
00:12:57 – 00:12:59
what are the plans,
Sky
00:12:59 – 00:13:25
their ponds, there, just everything bad you can imagine. I remember, I think we did a campaign one time we either did it or talked about doing and never quite pulled it off where, um, we just ended each campaign, we’d have our pitch, but we would start or start or finish just with a little like, hey, here’s a, here’s a Laffy taffy joke. But you know, now let’s tell you about a product.
Dan Nelken
00:13:25 – 00:14:03
Well, 11 thing I’ll say there is like, and a tip for people is to make sure the humor comes out of the product. Um, it’s not just funny and then you’re tacking it on. Don’t you remember the taco bell stuff. Poquito, poquito taco bell, the little chihuahua uh, through the course of that campaign, sales went down. But actually the sales of chihuahuas went up, which wasn’t their product. So yeah, I think you have to make it about your product and, and make sure the humor is born out of the product insights whether it’s your targets uh or the product or service itself. Fast
Sky
00:14:03 – 00:14:18
food I think. Yeah, maybe. I think it’s jack in the box. They had some hilarious with like the stoner just kind of subtly recognizing yes, 99% of people who eat at a restaurant or stone
Dan Nelken
00:14:18 – 00:14:33
what they did stuff when they created Jack who the guy who the copywriter who wrote that was the voice of Jack and Jack. He’s, I won’t say his name because I might get it wrong. Um he’s amazing. I
Sky
00:14:33 – 00:14:40
heard he basically wrote himself in so that he’s like he gets the royalties.
Dan Nelken
00:14:40 – 00:15:19
He was just the man for the job. They were so funny and one of his best skills uh huh is like with Jack in the box, They had Jack talking to a bunch of school kids in one commercial and when this little girl puts up her hand and says Jack, how do you know if you’re a lesbian? And uh he’s sitting there and he just, I don’t know the names of their burgers, but he’s like, well let me tell you about our whatever burger and he just, it’s all about product. But the setup was kind of this girl, he obviously didn’t have an answer for that. There was early on, I think it was like salmonella from some of their burgers. I think someone Died.
Sky
00:15:19 – 00:15:25
Yeah they had an instance in maybe the late 90s, early 2000’s
Dan Nelken
00:15:25 – 00:15:52
and one of the commercials coming out of that after like you know, they went quiet for a while was Jack in the box character had a burger and was like, hey you should try this burger and this guy was scared of it and started running away from him and he was chasing him over fences and pinned him down and shoved it in his mouth. And you know, they didn’t hide from it. They embraced it and they had a lot of like messaging around what happened. But they also kind of ran ran with humor and Jack in the box
Sky
00:15:52 – 00:16:35
is great. That’s tough to come back from. Yeah. Yeah they did. So there is a lot I find myself watching commercials more than the show’s frequently just to see how good or bad, like my least favorite commercials are. Probably car commercials, boring product and they’re terrible. Now they don’t even tell you like here’s the A. P. R. You’re gonna get in the mpg now. They’re just like here’s some puppies, here’s this, nothing to do with the car. There’s nothing, all cars are good. I think they haven’t matured. It wasn’t long enough ago that they had actual distinguishing features from the competition. So they were like oh we can do this and this and that. Um Even trucks have gotten away from like towing capacity and forget about it. They all can do all the great stuff now. Cars got
Sky
00:16:35 – 00:16:50
to a commodity point basically where they’re all good. So there’s no longer a need to highlight any of the product features, but they haven’t figured it out yet. It seems like, so they’ve gone the wire out and it’s like Find Us, Find some comedy
Dan Nelken
00:16:50 – 00:17:07
please. Yeah, you can, you can just switch logos around for most cars. Like there’s nothing that stands out. Volkswagen is the one that consistently over the years has has done great work. That’s been funny, smart. They’ve done interesting work. Yeah, they’re there.
Sky
00:17:07 – 00:17:13
They had a scandal. Also, maybe you need a big scandal in order to get funny. Yes.
Dan Nelken
00:17:13 – 00:17:54
You know, Volkswagen, The task was like an agency in New York in the 50s, we’re like, how do we sell the german car after World War two, jewish people here in new york. And yeah, they pulled it off, there’s all kinds of stories from back in the day and they, they went the humor route and they kind of embraced their dirt because it was like the, you know, the Volkswagen beetle, even calling it a beetle on, everyone was calling their cars mustangs and this and that they were just like, you know, kind of normal and imperfect, which really worked for them. Everyone else on every other channel is like just showing their perfect side, never showing their practice and I think Volkswagen,
Dan Nelken
00:17:54 – 00:18:04
there’s one brand that’s stood out, but otherwise yeah, I, I agree completely. The autumn, I, my least favorite is category. There’s an automotive
Sky
00:18:04 – 00:18:39
commercials to watch. Yeah, hopefully they’ll mature into something interesting at some point. Either give me information I can use or make it interesting, but they’re just been terribly boring to watch. So I’d like to make sure the listeners like I want to give them. Um, we’re going to do a lot of fun, philosophical talk about humor here. A lot of convincing. Maybe listeners to please consider using humor do not be a car commercial. Um, but I’d like to get into some, some nuts and bolts of it to like, can you give us the equation for good humor
Dan Nelken
00:18:39 – 00:19:04
basically. No. Um, but I think I can help a little bit, you know, whether you, I can’t afford a copywriter or a comedian. Um, and just just some tips to add some personality to your writing. I, I can give you so the listeners some structures and then different angles that they can kind of work into.
Sky
00:19:04 – 00:19:47
I like that add personality and you mentioned before that your, your humor should be within the personality of your company. So just having some, you know, maybe that’s why we didn’t use the laffy taffy. It was like, well, this isn’t, this is just kind of stapling on a joke. The city like, look now watch our pitch. Uh, this is our lone ranger and it’s a really bad 10 seconds. The lone ranger and then a half hour commercial. Um, and it’s a terrible show. Yeah. Using the personality of the, of the company and having a personality that you’re sticking true to with, with your humor. It seems, if you think your company has a personality and there’s no humor in there,
Sky
00:19:47 – 00:20:04
then it’s got to be a pretty shitty personality. I can’t think of. Many people are like, that guy has a great personality and there’s no humor involved. Like one flew over the cuckoo’s nest is personality gets the lobotomy is not
Dan Nelken
00:20:04 – 00:20:34
great. Yeah, no, I know. And I think with your personality, if you have a list, most companies have like, you know, three or four words, I don’t think many have the word funny in there and I think that’s okay. But you know, you can take it from a different trait if you’re bold an easy one, it’s like a hot sauce, then your personality can be bold. So your humor would be bold. So you’re taking it out of one of the traits and personality traits of your brand. Sometimes it’s funny, not always.
Sky
00:20:34 – 00:20:40
and make one of the traits, maybe like 2nd funniest guy in the room.
Dan Nelken
00:20:40 – 00:20:48
Um, okay, so maybe what I’ll do, I collected some stuff and uh, I’ll go through some structures for people and
Sky
00:20:48 – 00:20:53
that’s me right now. I’m by default, the second funniest guy in the room?
Dan Nelken
00:20:53 – 00:20:54
No, I don’t know about that.
Sky
00:20:54 – 00:20:57
God, I hope so. Otherwise, why are you on the show, man?
Dan Nelken
00:20:57 – 00:20:59
I guess that’s a good point. I’m very serious about this,
Sky
00:20:59 – 00:21:03
I’m serious about humor now, let’s get down to the point here. Okay,
Dan Nelken
00:21:03 – 00:21:39
I’m gonna share some examples from other people who are funnier than both of us, maybe. Uh and then some for me that show, I’m funnier than you improve it. Um Okay, so, so this first technique is called, I call it a list and twist and this is when you list at least two or three items and the last one is twisted and so you can play with the contrast where they’re kind of straight. So a lot of people, you’ll see do this in in their bios and you can do this on your social media bios or if it’s for your company too, uh straight kind of descriptors and then twist the last one.
Sky
00:21:39 – 00:21:54
So let me give an example of this for you from your bio, if I remember correctly, it talks about um where your work has been shot, like it has been an award shows and it’s been here and been there and it’s been on your mom’s fridge.
Dan Nelken
00:21:54 – 00:22:05
Yeah, exactly, that’s it. Uh and those are fun, like Ellen degeneres on twitter, she has a comedian talk show host, Ice road trucker. Um and
Sky
00:22:05 – 00:22:09
uh
Dan Nelken
00:22:09 – 00:22:13
she needs to update it.
Sky
00:22:13 – 00:22:14
Yes, yes, true.
Dan Nelken
00:22:14 – 00:22:46
That’s embracing your dirt. There you go. That’s something we might cover. There was a headline for the Denver Museum of, of Science. They did uh, like a feature on the amazon and the headline was when you travel down the amazon, you’re one of three things fishermen tourists or dinner. Um and then I, I use, I always, I used them often. So uh, I’ll say subscribe to my newsletter for tips on copyrighting creativity and the mating rituals of the european Waterville, which is pretty ridiculous. I think
Sky
00:22:46 – 00:22:50
the one thing,
Dan Nelken
00:22:50 – 00:23:22
you know what’s great about doing this, like even if most people think it’s stupid. Um, I have got messages from people saying really disappointed you promised Waterville content. Um, it’s just man, it’s so fun. Um, and I think one thing with that the mating rituals of the european water bowl or Ellen degeneres going ice road trucker, it wasn’t just trucker, I didn’t use just vole uh specificity specificity is, is funny. Uh, it can add add humor,
Sky
00:23:22 – 00:23:37
right? I’m actually gonna add that as I know you’re saying, listen, twist is kind of a technique, but be specific. Um, I’ve heard that from many comedians, like, hey, the point of the joke is, you don’t mention a cracker, you have to say the brand of cracker, like get very specific. I think
Dan Nelken
00:23:37 – 00:23:55
jerry Seinfeld who said, you know, when he started comedy, he said, if I could, as long as I can afford a jar of skippy peanut butter and a loaf of wonder bread, I’d be happy. And he did name the specific brands exactly what you’re saying. I did make it funnier than just peanut butter and bread.
Sky
00:23:55 – 00:24:19
You know what? I think I didn’t realize it, but I do this in my own bio. I believe it’s still there. I haven’t looked at it in a long time, but I think my final mention is that I am a color commentator for, it’s either ping pong or like amateur ping pong or something like that throw in something. Although I have done that in office. I have color commentated our company tournament. So
Dan Nelken
00:24:19 – 00:24:37
partially true. Yeah. I mean, I think people can do something say something weird and kind of out there. Um, I think if it’s, if it’s the truth, it’s, it’s better if there’s something you’re interested in, if it’s knitting, you can make up that unit pants for squirrels, like
Sky
00:24:37 – 00:24:39
something specific again.
Dan Nelken
00:24:39 – 00:24:44
And if you can’t come up with anything, then just putting it in because it would be better than something that’s really straight.
Sky
00:24:44 – 00:25:14
So one of the most effective creatives I’ve ever seen and it’s, it’s now been so heavily used. I think it’s totally crapped out. Um, but it was effective for probably at least a decade. Um, was the creative that is following up to a previous message saying, hey, I didn’t hear back from you. Are you not interested, busy or, and then there’d be the third one, like your desk fell on you and you need help,
Sky
00:25:14 – 00:25:44
Let me know and all the, you know, crane lift or some some sort of a reason you physically can’t get back to them. And as kind of terrible as it is, it’s the same technique and we were using it a decade ago, we probably used it for like five years straight and as bad of a creative as I thought it was, we kept using it year after year because it was still effective and people be like, that’s hilarious funniest thing I’ve seen in like we’ve been using this for 10 years. Yeah.
Dan Nelken
00:25:44 – 00:26:14
Yeah, it is. I think it’s, it’s like it’s misdirect. Uh and I think because it’s familiar to you just think, you know where it’s going and it kind of works every time you can even do it with a partner, if you have a partner and you have a shared grocery list, just add some things to the end and then not expecting thank you. Yeah, that’s our follow up.
Sky
00:26:14 – 00:26:21
You’ve got a Doberman. Oh my God. Um Yes, yes.
Dan Nelken
00:26:21 – 00:26:55
Yes. Uh there’s uh one more, this is kind of an easy one for people who aren’t funny um, twist a popular saying uh I think some people will say just use cliches and quotes. I I never do not in the headline, but I think you take that borrowed interest, it’s popular and you twist it, I’ll give some examples of some, some brands who have done that. So this one is for abc tv, they’re promoting their comedy shows and they had a headline that was laughter is the best medicine. Unless you’re really sick, then you should call 911.
Sky
00:26:55 – 00:26:57
Yeah, that’s great.
Dan Nelken
00:26:57 – 00:27:35
Yeah, so they’re starting out with something common, you think, you know where it’s going? Uh there was one on a veterinary clinic, the sign kind of, you know outside um that said it’s all fun and games until someone ends up in a cone. Uh there’s a bakery that God never said give us this day, our daily kale. So if you’re gonna do this uh Yeah, I think you can list things related if it’s, you have an active product, list quote, things related to sweat, getting sweaty. Um and then list like just any quotes and then just look for ways, you can twist them and add in something that’s related to your product.
Sky
00:27:35 – 00:27:52
I love that, twisting a quote. Yeah, because you’re using something that people already recognize you have the familiar and then um you’re making it specifically relevant to your product. It seems like it’s almost an equation like, hey, just go find a quote, twist it to your product. Boom. Funny, familiar short
Dan Nelken
00:27:52 – 00:28:01
but don’t do something like keep calm and pad and podcast on or something like that, like
Sky
00:28:01 – 00:28:02
I hate it.
Dan Nelken
00:28:02 – 00:28:12
That’s one thing I would say is just whatever you come up with um just do a google image search and if you see a lot of it
Sky
00:28:12 – 00:28:40
you think it’s funny and you find out it’s crapped out. Yeah, yeah. The keep calm one. I had to search for years and years ago where that was, I didn’t even know where it was from. I just started seeing it so much. I was like, okay, what’s the origin of this? And then going back to World War Two, I think is the original source, right? And it’s like, oh wow, people have been crapping this out for a long time.
Dan Nelken
00:28:40 – 00:29:08
Yeah, no, there’s, there’s lots, there’s just twisting one word. There was one I saw it was this kid who did every day for a year, he challenged himself to, to write a headline and he had one for tic tac breath mints that just said you lost me at Hello? Uh Yeah, yeah, So you’re just taking something that exists and injecting a word or something to, to make it your own
Sky
00:29:08 – 00:29:14
damn. That could sell a lot of tic tacs. That’s going to be stuck in my mind. Now,
Sky
00:29:14 – 00:29:39
if you can write lines like that. Okay, somebody go find that kid because he doesn’t have a job. You got some golden headlines here. You mentioned headlines several times. Are we talking primarily headlines for this, is it for headlines and for the main copy, whether it’s email copy, website, copy tweets. What’s what’s the, I guess main target people should be thinking about for humor or is there one?
Dan Nelken
00:29:39 – 00:29:58
No, I mean, I’m using the word headlines because uh I’m trying to sell a book here. No, I well it is about headlines, so that’s why that’s where these examples come from. But nobody has to buy my book. I I enjoy talking about this. I just want you to add more personality to the world. That’s my mission here.
Sky
00:29:58 – 00:30:02
Nobody has to buy your book. But you will kill a puppy if they don’t. Yes, every day.
Dan Nelken
00:30:02 – 00:30:03
Every single
Sky
00:30:03 – 00:30:07
day. And he’s just gonna guess whether you bought it or not. So you better make sure he knows
Dan Nelken
00:30:07 – 00:30:34
I’m using headlines just because in in the world of copyrighting and ad agencies, they don’t do a lot of, I’ll say uh professional development or building your craft once you’re in and it’s something we have to do a lot. So whether it’s a billboard, it could be a subject line and email, it could be a line of copy anywhere in an instagram post a tweet. Um I keep using the word headlines because it’s
Sky
00:30:34 – 00:30:51
if you don’t go to emails, the subject line, if you don’t get them with the subject line, there is nothing else they don’t open. It’s like if your book’s title sucks, nobody’s going to open it. So you gotta have a good, you might want to go back and revisit. You gotta have a good
Dan Nelken
00:30:51 – 00:30:59
title? Good point. Good point. Thanks. Yeah, I mean, you lost me at hello as a subject line in an email. Um, I think we’ll have a good open rate
Sky
00:30:59 – 00:31:11
now, you better have relevant because I want to use that just to get the open right then I realized ship we have a lot of the body of the email actually has to fit the subject line. I gotta somehow match that.
Dan Nelken
00:31:11 – 00:31:51
Um, Okay. I got, I got a couple more for you. Okay. This one is uh, it’s called, it’s called the Smile. I also call it the mullet where it’s like business in the front, kind of party in the back. So you get the straight message up front and this is like when you have a really good offer or a sale um, or you know, it’s just a straight message that you need to communicate a sponsorship ad so you could do 50% off, you know, everything Moscow except Agnes in accounting. She stays um, we’re proud to support the L G B T Q community even when there isn’t a parade. Uh, take a strong stance against global warming
Dan Nelken
00:31:51 – 00:32:10
order, some pizza or something that is something I wrote all of those for different clients. That last one was for a, was an enviro visa that anything uh, you purchased some points went to some environmental fund and, and so we, we made fun of it and they were, they were refined with that as long as the
Sky
00:32:10 – 00:32:29
straight message is short enough and I always tell people the thing you want people to get to, it’s basically don’t put it below the fold in an email that is if they have to scroll down to get to the punch line, they’re not getting to the punch line of a paragraph of serious stuff.
Dan Nelken
00:32:29 – 00:33:16
It was just picture their beer and it said, please enjoy responsibly. The internet never forgets. Uh, so yeah, it was like three words off the top to get the message. They, you know, obviously have to produce a certain amount of content related to responsible drinking. Um and then they just add a little twist to fit in and they’ve done some great stuff over the years. So yeah, that I call the smile or, or the mullet. Um just to add some personality to something very straight, but get the harder working important message up front. And if you are writing for a client, a lot of times they feel like their product is buried and this is a way to kind of give them what they want and they may,
Sky
00:33:16 – 00:33:53
the humor is the chaser here. It’s like, okay, you gotta have the medicine and now we’re gonna have a chance to wash it down. I love, I love the mullet. Don’t call it the smile, humor built right in. My wife tells me, I, I recently grew a mohawk like humor, visual humor, especially when during Covid, I did it, you take the buzzers and do it yourself. So the back you don’t get to see and it’s just this crazy raccoon tail of a mullet on the back of your head and you don’t know it. Um, so everybody gets to laugh behind your back naturally. Since that’s, when
Dan Nelken
00:33:53 – 00:33:59
do do you, sometimes you don’t look like this.
Sky
00:33:59 – 00:34:37
I went to an official event and uh, frequently just put on a hat. Uh, so I went to a wedding and I stood it up for the wedding. Um, but normally I followed the belief that if you’re going to be punk rock and mullet is kind of punk rock, spending three hours standing your hair up and coloring every day isn’t very punk. I don’t know. That just seems like you’re, you have this regiment you have to do, how is that sticking it to the man? I’m like, no, I’m gonna wake up and be full like, like last of the Mohicans just however I roll out of bed.
Sky
00:34:37 – 00:35:08
Yeah. And then sometimes the chia pet grows in on the side. And I, you know, if you’re gonna tell people with your hair that you don’t give an f, then you can’t spend all day showing them that like, that’s a little bit too much effort to tell them that you don’t care. Oh yeah. Back to the good throwback. Now, what about that throwbacks? That’s big in comedy. Right? The room for that and copyrighting is there time and a message to do a
Dan Nelken
00:35:08 – 00:35:51
100%. I mean it was so I would say this maybe applies more like radio tv scripts, um instagram post wherever you have kind of longer copy. And usually the rule is like if you have a headline or your subject line and email, the first line of, of copy is a bridge from that line and the very last line should tie into where you started. It keeps you focused. So it’s all about one thing. Uh so, you know, I think too many brands and people want to get everything into a message. Um this keeps you focused. One thing, there’s an analogy like if I throw a eight ping pong balls at you, how many will you catch? You know, you kind of be panicked and probably catch none. If I throw one at you,
Dan Nelken
00:35:51 – 00:35:56
you’re more likely to catch this thing. So it’s the same same with copyrighting.
Sky
00:35:56 – 00:36:34
It goes back to be specific again, jerry Seinfeld, if he if in his thing, not only did he say the specific brand of peanut butter and bread, If he just said like put one food on another food, like the more generic you get more general you get, the less interesting, the less funny, no more personality less and humorless you’re getting. Um, so it seems, I think I joked about you giving us equations for humor, but a lot of this stuff there is very much a oh yes, you’re gonna start with this later, you’re going to come back to it like for people who have a hard time with humor which is really everybody. I mean
Sky
00:36:34 – 00:36:51
The greatest stand up comics, probably 1% of their jokes make the stage so don’t feel bad if your stuff isn’t all landing, you just need to create more stuff and testing this weekend and stuff and it’s it’s nobody’s jokes all land very well.
Dan Nelken
00:36:51 – 00:37:26
Most people would be shocked at how many headlines or scripts for tv or radio whatever are written. Like some of the top agencies, They say the rule of thumb is for every great headline, you have to write 100. Um It’s like pretty common through the advertising industry. So yeah, you build a muscle doing that. Um you can get a bit quicker, but I I think um you know too many people think of creativity as magic, I think like the end result can kind of feel magical but there’s a lot of structure and process. Speaking of Seinfeld man, that guy is a like a robot
Sky
00:37:26 – 00:37:54
with comedians go out, I live in L. A. They go out to the comedy places for like a year ahead of time testing materials, seeing how crowds react to it, revising it, tweaking it, throwing stuff out because they thought it was hilarious but nobody else did, like I’d say maybe Andy Kaufman is not the best role model if you’re going to write humor for marketing because you’re the only one laughing and the joke is on the audience. Ah
Dan Nelken
00:37:54 – 00:38:10
yes, Seinfeld is great. Like he has he has some great lines, I don’t have them in front of me, but just his observations. Um What does he say if I never ordered the specials at a restaurant, if they’re so special, why aren’t they on the menu? Um
Sky
00:38:10 – 00:38:41
Okay, that I hadn’t heard that one, but I tell people all the time not to order the specials because I got a bar and grill in college and I would say, don’t order the special at a regular restaurant because that’s the thing that cook has no experience cooking, right? Like, it’s like the stuff you cook, You cook a burger at the burger place. Okay. The guys from burgers all day, so you can get it good and make some weird special sandwich. Yeah, I was messing up the special every damn time because I only made it once in my life.
Dan Nelken
00:38:41 – 00:38:56
Mhm, pad thai from from Gary because it’s like, all the ingredients are like, well, this is going bad, We better make make something special here. Gary. Uh Yeah, don’t order the specialist. I
Sky
00:38:56 – 00:39:02
hadn’t heard that one, but he’s absolutely right and for many reasons, but do not order the special.
Dan Nelken
00:39:02 – 00:39:32
Yeah. Like what, what with what I got? I got one more rolling around in my brain. Um There’s no such thing as fun for the whole family. It’s another one, but he had said um but like, those are, you could easily attach those to kind of brands. Uh and that could be great headlines for something, so he’s, he’s a great one to watch. He also doesn’t, you know, he’s not vulgar, doesn’t swear, he’s quite respectful, they’re just funny observations that are really relatable. So I
Sky
00:39:32 – 00:39:58
want to take a quick break here, but when we come back, you say he’s not vulgar doesn’t swear. There’s been this explosion of brand personalities, particularly in B2B, not consumer, I think, but in B2B being like, our personality is going to be in your face and vulgar. And and I say that, and I’m then I’m realizing, oh wait, the tagline for our show, we’re doing the same thing, like, hey, we’re adults in B two B, so we can say ship and funk and stuff like that, and it’s, it’s cool.
Sky
00:39:58 – 00:40:45
Um but some people, you get some of the most famous B to be people out there and not even be to be like, you get Gary V and his whole brand is every other word is an F bomb, and there’s a lot of people who just are constantly using swear words I had in there, Does your book title have a swear word in it? Okay, wow, come on, not very hip, There’s so many books where it’s like to have one up here faq content marketing, like, if you don’t have to use an asterisk in your title of whatever, then it’s not, you know, you’re not hardcore kind of. Um but that’s there’s been a big surge in that. I don’t want to get into it. Now, let me front loaded here, we’ll take a quick break and come back,
Sky
00:40:45 – 00:41:20
come back and we’ll hit this funny just to beat a ton of shit. Alright, so if you market podcast, obviously we’ll listen to, We got dan Nelken here. I also want to mention to people how I connected with you. Um there’s a little little humor involved in there and a little seriousness, but we’re talking to dan Nelken about humor and copyrighting. You’re listening to the market podcasts and we’ll be right back.
Sky
00:41:20 – 00:42:16
- Welcome back to the if you market podcast. I hope you enjoyed that commercial. We’re here with with Dan Nelken of dan Nelken Creative or of Milk and Creative. Um We will not edit that out talking about humor and copyrighting using humor and you’re copyrighting, I want to mention basically this episode is a public service episode helping marketers do better creative in always through humor. Um So, before the break, I mentioned a couple of things. One I’ve always wanted to get a comedian on the show to get a comic copywriter on the show. Um so I’m really thrilled to have you on, but the way I ended up reaching out to you was um I saw a post you did on, I believe it was linkedin about the death of a comedian
Sky
00:42:16 – 00:43:01
and um a comedian that I really loved and I think so many people loved and now I’m blanking on his name. Um norm Macdonald, norm Macdonald. So norm Macdonald dies recently for this episode. It may be months back. But um I saw your post on it. I thought it was, it was funny and reached out to you based on that and just wanting to have somebody like you on the show. Um just showing what humor, you know, how it impacts everybody, how much humor there is in all of our lives and if we don’t realize it with people like norm Macdonald and and all the shows we watch and and what that brings to people’s lives and how you can actually do that in your marketing to some degree, like you’re stuffy and boring.
Dan Nelken
00:43:01 – 00:43:35
Yeah. So um just for some context I shared, I, I took a bunch of norm Macdonald’s jokes and then I linked them to like copyrighting or creative techniques and advertising to show how this is being done. Um and I, and I gave Yeah, yeah, it was, it was just techniques. I didn’t provide any examples in there. I just kinda shone a light on norm as a comedian I loved and man made me laugh so much in my life and still will thanks to Youtube. Um but that
Sky
00:43:35 – 00:43:38
because it’s a great write up that you did breaking things down,
Dan Nelken
00:43:38 – 00:43:58
You know, it’s like I did it the night before. I had an idea because I’ve been sharing content. It, I had kind of a structure to it, but it blew up and it shows people want to do that. It was like I last saw over, I don’t know, 200,000 views and whatever. Like I had had my neighbor reached out and said, Oh, I had no idea you were linked in famous,
Sky
00:43:58 – 00:43:59
had no idea you were funny.
Dan Nelken
00:43:59 – 00:44:01
Oh yeah, that’s yeah,
Sky
00:44:01 – 00:44:06
that’s kind of cheating. I mean you use norm Macdonald’s. I know. So
Dan Nelken
00:44:06 – 00:44:47
sometimes I shared, he gets all the credit and it’s funny when I share examples of, of like funny, like ads or whatever people attributed to me. So maybe I’m not that funny, but I’m like, no, I didn’t, I didn’t do it. I have done some funny stuff, but I didn’t do that. But the norm Macdonald thinking it was, it wasn’t me, I think it was how I framed it. But people, people love that. And especially it’s like on linkedin, it’s so boring and people are so stiff on their best behavior or they have, you know how many 20 year old Ceo s are on linkedin? Um, I changed my title to the Chief Creative Ding Dong because I don’t really get work. I not that I don’t care, but
Dan Nelken
00:44:47 – 00:44:52
you know, and someone hired me because he was looking for a chief Creative Ding Dong and someone who didn’t take himself that
Sky
00:44:52 – 00:45:00
you’re looking for humor then. Yeah, you better not have a super serious uh I mean you could be a humor guru also that would be uh
Dan Nelken
00:45:00 – 00:45:21
Yeah, but I don’t even think like the stuff I do is like I do bring personality to it I want and I have more than just humor and that’s the thing. I think like we’ve said on this, it’s having a personality, humor is one big way to show that personality. It’s not my only trick, but I think, you know, I do gravitate towards it and why the hell not? You know,
Sky
00:45:21 – 00:45:59
so that’s how we connected. But then getting to the other thing we’re talking about before the break was swearing all, all the, all the things that will get you sent to hell and the surge of that in marketing. Um I mean it has its place in humor, a lot of humor you see, you know, there’s a lot of that is a lot of squaring it perfectly fine. A lot of people are using it just for impact. We use it for a little combination of the two. But any thoughts on this, this explosion, I attribute it back to the ship. My dad says, Yeah, I mean, I guess it almost forces personality,
Sky
00:45:59 – 00:46:11
You’re saying you’re jumping off the high dive by swearing, you’re saying, oh shit now I have to have personality and put out some risk because I’m going to drop an F bomb. There’s no point in running this through committee anymore.
Dan Nelken
00:46:11 – 00:46:47
Well, I think what, what brands used to do would be like show like sexy women or scantily clad women to get attention and I don’t think swearing is that low, but it’s kind of, I think you can tell who’s authentic uh and then who’s doing it to to be cool or to be edgy and it’s pretty transparent. But I do think it’s a trend. I think I was reading recently an old school movie Gone with the Wind when clark gable said uh well frankly my darling, I don’t give a damn that blew up. Like that was the equivalent of Ship my dad says and I think, I think I would say
Sky
00:46:47 – 00:47:03
way worse. I mean ship my dad says, I don’t think anyone was like, oh we have to boycott, this should be hung now. Gone with the wind saying I am in a movie theater. They were just like quick get the women out, they can’t hear this. Oh my gosh, it was a major scandal. Yeah,
Dan Nelken
00:47:03 – 00:47:42
I think the swearing to with with social media um opening up and being less censored than tv. Um I think brands have to compete and not a lot of brands swear, but I think a lot of personal brands do. I also think a lot of that stuff is, is more self healthy and so they’re trying to appeal to a different audience Someone who would never read a self help book, the like the subtle art of not giving an I didn’t want to say it, I swear normally, but I just feel it can be gratuitous and some of those books which I I’ve I’ve read, it’s just every other word I feel, I feel like it’s like a good weapon to have, but it’s like the the gun in your sock kind of, you know, like
Sky
00:47:42 – 00:48:03
people with the C word, you’re dropping the C word constantly, it doesn’t work anymore. Sorry, but you have no idea how much impact that carries here in the States. You get like two of those in your life. You guys are every other, it’s no longer sharp. Um So it has its place it seems, but be careful using it gimmicky or purely to get attention.
Dan Nelken
00:48:03 – 00:48:25
Yeah, I would just save them if you really want to emphasize something it will be much more effective. And if it’s if it’s your personality, like, you know, like Gary V, he’s probably toned down, but he’s still, that’s his personality and his tone and I don’t know if it’s a personality, it probably is now, if it wasn’t um
Sky
00:48:25 – 00:49:09
I had to explain this to my eight year old daughter recently, but the bad word was stupid because we were listening to the radio driving and someone said stupid and she’s like, oh they said a bad word, they said a bad and I had to explain to her that well, referring to something that is stupid as stupid isn’t a bad word, calling somebody that to be mean. It like the context matters how it was actually effective, properly used. It’s okay. Some bad words have no place really. And so the the the emphasis part though, I mean we market the shift out of it, we use the super terrible word of ships for emphasis in that spot. We market a whole bunch out of it just doesn’t quite, it feels
Dan Nelken
00:49:09 – 00:49:11
conversational, it’s for impact
Sky
00:49:11 – 00:49:15
- So they try to be careful how you use
Dan Nelken
00:49:15 – 00:49:49
- It doesn’t feel, I think um yeah, this kind of kind of sets up, there’s no swearing in it. But uh, you know, with the same attitude, one of the other techniques, I don’t have examples. There are some in the book though for just however much money it costs, I don’t know, um um finding an enemy and you’ll see big big brands do this. Um and they’ll kind of go right at each other, but it’s, it’s like uh they’re two Goliaths, so nobody’s really getting hurt and and some can say it’s it’s good for for both brands, but small brands can also do this,
Dan Nelken
00:49:49 – 00:50:11
but I think the key is you can’t like calling someone stupid call something stupid. Um, so if you had a coffee, you could take on sleep or naps or fancy teas, beer could take on wine where you’re not picking on someone or a specific brand. An active brand could take on laziness. So you’re saying
Sky
00:50:11 – 00:50:36
pick on something that can’t fight back. That’s really nice man. Thinking like, okay, Apple back in the day said we’re going after Microsoft, we’re going after um there the big guy and we’re going to make them the bad guys. You’re saying this a little bit different in a, in a humor kind of message wise again, coffee go after sleep, don’t go after the other coffee maker.
Dan Nelken
00:50:36 – 00:50:40
You can’t do that. I mean, yeah,
Sky
00:50:40 – 00:50:44
I would start a war with an inanimate object or a concept or
Dan Nelken
00:50:44 – 00:50:59
Yes. And that can give you when you talk, we talked earlier about how to how to be funny. You don’t sit down and write once you have that and you know that laziness is our enemy. You’ll get ideas and that will help you be more interesting and have more personality
Sky
00:50:59 – 00:51:07
creative seems to flow out of that general concept. Yeah. What’s the enemy that your product defeats great. Start a war with it. Yes.
Dan Nelken
00:51:07 – 00:51:42
It’s also some some brands, uh, and people will do it, you know, to have an enemy for yourself. If it’s like creating content. If it’s having excuses anytime it just it just impacts you anytime you have an excuse. I don’t have time. I don’t have this and you’ve named that as an enemy. It’s gonna help you get over it. You’ll develop that some companies um, will have a list. I’ve seen one, there was an ad agency, you know, they were like enemy complacency was an enemy. Um, they had a list of them and they’re crushing it. So it could be good personally to
Sky
00:51:42 – 00:51:53
good copy lines and highlights the problem your product solves, which is what you should be doing frequently with your marketing unless you’re commodity and then just go pure funny.
Dan Nelken
00:51:53 – 00:52:24
Yeah. Yes. Um, one more actually I got two more. I’ll do these kind of quickly is embracing embracing your dirt and kind of being self deprecating. So this is when you can list these are the things almost you don’t want customers to know they’re your flaws or or the, the negative things people think about your product. Um and why they, why they won’t buy it because once you embrace your dirt and you call that out, you cancel out the reason why they won’t buy it and you kind of give them a reason to consider why they should. You’re just getting
Sky
00:52:24 – 00:52:32
kind of like Eminem rap Battle 100% type thing where you just like, well now you can’t attack me about that because I did it first.
Dan Nelken
00:52:32 – 00:52:38
Yeah. Funny. I first I’ve heard Gary V use that example and I did, I did put it in and reference
Sky
00:52:38 – 00:52:39
- He got that from me. I
Dan Nelken
00:52:39 – 00:52:43
bet it was you. Yes, that’s right. I think he said, yeah,
Sky
00:52:43 – 00:52:45
he knew I was going to say that.
Dan Nelken
00:52:45 – 00:53:26
Yeah, a long time ago. Yeah. So I’ll give you some examples. There’s uh Roku, the streaming service, here’s an example of them embracing their dirt. Americans watch five hours of tv a day. We can do better. Or there’s another one that’s one full season per night is all we ask. Um, and there’s, there’s this great hans Brinker, this budget hans Brinker budget hotel is actually their name there in Amsterdam. I think it’s a complete schiphol and and they fully embrace that. So they have a lot of amazing headlines. Uh, one of them is free wireless available with the neighbor’s password
Sky
00:53:26 – 00:53:36
back to the jack in the box, pointing at their stoner clientele. Kind of making fun of them. Yeah, ordering 50 tacos or whatever they’re buying.
Dan Nelken
00:53:36 – 00:54:19
Yeah, because it’s when you do this, you know, there’s a truth in it, but it’s not true. They have wifi and they’re making fun of themselves and uh um okay, I’m gonna, I’m gonna do two more for this. There’s a saskatoon steakhouse in, in south Carolina. Um, and they kinda obviously the wild game and they’re very meaty, so vegetarians will not like them and they’re okay with that. Clearly uh, there’s plenty of room for all. God’s creatures right next to the mashed potatoes is a line conserve wildlife today. So there’s more to eat tomorrow. Just kind of nice and funny and then let’s go. Yeah, we did that one.
Sky
00:54:19 – 00:54:27
Don’t be worried. That shows kind of don’t be worried about offending the people who are never going to buy your product by like conviction.
Dan Nelken
00:54:27 – 00:54:35
Yeah. Because I think a lot of times marketing is watered down because we’re trying to appeal to people who will never buy our product anyways.
Sky
00:54:35 – 00:55:00
Maybe be careful like if you’re selling a candy bar because you don’t have diabetes yet guest all the way to pitch it. That’s when your comedy went too far back. Give them your opening pitch with that. And then whatever you say afterwards, they’ll be like, we like the second one, mm hmm
Dan Nelken
00:55:00 – 00:55:15
It’ll sell it okay. I’ve got one last one which is very similar to kind of embracing your dirt. It’s just being refreshingly honest. So this is different from, from honesty. Um there was
Dan Nelken
00:55:15 – 00:55:59
hyper hippo swiss, It’s a private bank. We like our clients because of their money. They like us because of our honesty. Uh that’s a little bit on the nose. But it does build trust when you are refreshingly honest like that. And I’m gonna, I’m gonna end this on, I’m gonna end it on one of mine this example. Anyway, Volkswagen, we have brought them up earlier. That’s a good example. They have a little cars, like a kind of little smart car called the Volkswagen up. Um, it’s very like unassuming. There’s nothing too fancy about it. And one of their headlines, This car will help you up the corporate ladder. Just drive it to work early and work really hard. Um They had a series of lines like that that were so awesome. Um And then I I often do for my newsletter
Dan Nelken
00:55:59 – 00:56:08
because I never really wanted a newsletter. People were like, I missed your post, you should have a newsletter. So I just started to tag these articles I was writing, let’s say to subscribe
Sky
00:56:08 – 00:56:16
twitter’s for people who, other people want them to write a newsletter but they don’t want to newsletter tweet. Yeah,
Dan Nelken
00:56:16 – 00:56:36
so I used to say, you know, subscribed to this newsletter. I may never start at this kind of whatever you are L and so people were doing it and then I thought well now I guess I have to start it. But I know the reason I didn’t want one is because I unsubscribed to them because they all, at some point get to sail z or veer off
Sky
00:56:36 – 00:56:43
started. Well I think we’ll put this for our newsletter. Subscribe to this newsletter so we can have your email. Yeah.
Dan Nelken
00:56:43 – 00:56:54
So I I always say become a future on subscriber or something like that. I just embrace it and people know it. There is a truth in it. It’s refreshingly honest.
Sky
00:56:54 – 00:56:55
Unsubscribe. Yes.
Dan Nelken
00:56:55 – 00:57:07
Yes, exactly. The journey to unsubscribing starts here. All stuff I’ve used. Um So yeah, those I I have, I’m not trying to sell the book when I say this, but maybe I
Sky
00:57:07 – 00:57:17
am what’s wrong with?
Dan Nelken
00:57:17 – 00:57:41
Okay, people in advertising I think for people who build websites, uh I think are horrible at doing the same for themselves. And there’s a guy actually a few years ago I reached out to redo my website, the designer, he built websites and his website said under construction and I was like, what the hell are you saying? I’ve never been busier, so I’m just not gonna do it. So I was so inspired, I still don’t have one to this day. I have all it is, is a subscribe to the newsletter.
Sky
00:57:41 – 00:58:18
One of the best event booths I’ve ever seen um was unintentional, I believe. And it because the brand was something like always present or something like that, that was and they didn’t make it to the event. So it was an empty that just had like the generic white name up in black text placeholder there for when they come and actually set up. And everybody was coming by taking pictures with the booth like, oh, look how funny this is, look how I run. And I was like, man, I think they got more out of this event by not showing up.
Sky
00:58:18 – 00:58:22
Yeah, so sorry, I cut you off there.
Dan Nelken
00:58:22 – 00:58:25
I don’t know what I was saying. I was talking, I was telling my book,
Sky
00:58:25 – 00:58:37
yeah, let’s tell your, by the way, so we’re getting to the end here, let’s sell your book, you’ve got a book coming out, the stuff we’ve been talking about here. Your book is all about headlines, right? Yeah. So look around a bit, but a lot of headlines. Talk
Dan Nelken
00:58:37 – 00:59:22
a lot of headlines, but I think the foundation um to writing, like I said, the beginning is thinking and so I provide a foundation. I’ve really dumbed it down, I think I said that’s like the dumbest book ever written on on copyrighting. So it’s my target. The target was copywriters because I know they struggle with uh you know, self doubt and there’s not a lot, I think a lot of creative people do, there’s not a lot out there to help build craft in a way that’s just dumb. Uh and I really broke it down and so I think in doing that, um it also will help anyone who, you know, if you have to write more for your brand or whatever your dating profile, it will help you. Uh
Sky
00:59:22 – 01:00:01
Two things. One get dan’s book to take an improv class. I think improv classes are great. I’ve recommended this before for for people for copyrighting and humor in in general and if you want to, maybe you still chance to to re title your book here. Yeah, I swear word for ships sake. How to how to make people think you’re funny and smart. Um like you said, there’s all these examples type of stuff we’ve been talking about, but the techniques you’ve given um and people think either you already think you’re funny, but deep down inside, you know, you could be a lot funnier. Um,
Sky
01:00:01 – 01:00:24
or you don’t think you’re funny and would like to be able to having these actual techniques, like the ones you’ve gone over? Some of yours here are really, and some, you’ll be like, oh yeah, I wrote something good once and it did that, that’s why you can actually, don’t feel like you have to pull it out of a hat to be funny. The comedians have formulas, they use, they have techniques, they use, they have things,
Sky
01:00:24 – 01:00:58
You go fall back on to make sure things land. You still got to come up with the concept and the good little things and you’ve got to come up with 200 of them to find a couple of good ones. I think your book would be a great start for people or great finish or great anywhere along the path for Christ sake. So I think this is a good spot to wrap it up here. Um, we’re talking with dan milk and I’m gonna have all the notes on the, um, on the show notes here and don’t worry, the sound in the background there, we’re gonna edit you out right now. Me talking. So nobody will even know what the hell I’m talking about
Dan Nelken
01:00:58 – 01:01:03
my daughter and my in laws coming back with my daughter.
Sky
01:01:03 – 01:01:09
We’ll have links to you anywhere. You want people to find, you want to go to your blank website. Where can we, where
Dan Nelken
01:01:09 – 01:01:24
can we go, blank website? I would go, it’s belkin creative dot com. I think the best place right now to is probably linkedin. If you’re not on linkedin, just go to my website. Um, and uh, yeah, I think those are the two best places to find me. I
Sky
01:01:24 – 01:01:32
would say if you’re not on Lincoln, why are you listening to a B two B marketing podcast? For God’s sakes. Even just for the humor of it, Go create a linkedin profile
Dan Nelken
01:01:32 – 01:01:33
down there and
Sky
01:01:33 – 01:01:57
we’ll have a link to the norm. Macdonald post. Read that one. It’s great. Great post there. Um, we’ll have a link to your book to, it’ll be out by the time by the time we air this anyway. And um, yeah, on behalf of the, if you market team here and um, dan nelson of nelson creative, Thank you for listening to the, if you market podcast where we believe if you market the ship out of it with humor, they will come.
