This week on the If You Market podcast we speak with Scott Brinker of ChiefMartech.com and HubSpot about MarTech. If you don’t know Scott Brinker then your probably also wondering what MarTech is, and what your listening to, and what a podcast is. 🙂
Scott publishes the chiefmartec.com blog, programs the MarTech conference, and wrote the book Hacking Marketing. He is VP platform ecosystem at HubSpot and was previously the co-founder of ion interactive.
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Contact Scott Brinker
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sjbrinker/
Web: www.chiefmartech.com
www.martechconf.com
www.hubspot.com
Twitter: @chiefmartech
Book: Hacking Marketing: Agile practices to make marketing smarter, faster and more innovative.
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Transcript:
00:10
thank you for listening to the If You
00:12
Market podcast
00:13
I’m your host Sky Cassidy Carla Joe Helms
00:16
is here with us as well
00:17
hello everybody hope you’re having a
00:19
great day and today we’ll be talking
00:21
about human decisions in mar tech and
00:24
just mar tech in general with the king
00:27
of mar tech scott Brinker he’s written a
00:29
book on hacking marketing he’s the VP of
00:32
platform ecosystems at HubSpot and he’s
00:34
one of the cofounders I own interactive
00:37
Scott that’s a brief for somebody like
00:39
you there’s just way too much we could
00:40
say a very brief introduction but we’re
00:42
super excited to have you on today Scott
00:44
and I talking about Marv tech Wow okay
00:47
like king of our tech that’s a little
00:49
bit like what sting in the police with
00:51
king of pain don’t see what I can do but
00:59
thank you for having me yeah so I always
01:01
like to start out with some general
01:03
stuff we are super thrilled to have you
01:06
on thanks for taking the time with us I
01:07
know you just finished the mark tech
01:09
conference when this episode airs we pre
01:11
tape a little bit it’s gonna be about a
01:13
month from now I think beginning of
01:15
November but just so everybody knows
01:17
Scott just came down off the mark tech
01:19
conference and he is now just relaxing
01:23
here with us a little bit so extra happy
01:26
to have you have you on during your time
01:28
of relaxation here
01:30
yeah actually talking mark Tech is what
01:32
I do for fun so it’s something some
01:38
passion slash obsessions live shed
01:41
disorder but you know so Scott before we
01:46
get into mark tech too much I’m kind of
01:48
fascinated with with you as a person and
01:51
your background and your I mean what
01:53
jumped out to me most of you can speak
01:55
to a little bit as your your schooling
01:57
from high school to college to startups
02:00
back to college I think people look at
02:02
you and they probably think Oh Scott
02:04
Brinker probably came out of high school
02:05
early maybe went to a you know an Ivy
02:09
League college and you know followed
02:11
that standard really smart guy
02:13
and and then jumped into business and
02:17
was successful you’ve got quite a bit
02:19
different of a bounce around story yeah
02:22
yeah my poor parents I did put them
02:25
through them but yeah so I left high
02:29
school early because I was doing their
02:32
early interactive games in the bulletin
02:35
board system and the web really took off
02:38
I got into college early at the
02:41
University of Miami but then dropped out
02:43
of that because the board stuff was
02:46
going well and yeah ended up you know
02:48
gang into the internet space and doing
02:50
that for a number of years and so it was
02:52
until I turned 30 that I finally with
02:55
the little chip on my shoulder went back
02:57
to complete my undergraduate columbia
03:00
which actually has as an aside a really
03:02
interesting program for non-traditional
03:04
students there’s more than a few of us
03:06
out there in the world there now and
03:09
then because i had that chip on my
03:11
shoulder after I graduated Columbia I
03:13
like computer science masters at Harvard
03:17
justice just a thoroughly beat that chip
03:19
off the shoulder I don’t know about that
03:26
again it’s kind of like on the mario
03:27
tech side not so much less smart it’s
03:29
the obsessive has the illusion of smart
03:32
sometimes and I guess you probably
03:34
needed to make it up to your parents a
03:36
little bit like okay okay I’ll go to
03:37
college see ya I thought that that was I
03:45
mean it was traditional in a sense of
03:47
the outlier traditional story you know
03:51
dropped out of high school dropped out
03:52
of college to do to make a tech company
03:55
that kind of thing but just to going
03:57
back when when you read off MIT Harvard
03:59
just all the schools that you that you
04:02
went to and graduated from and how
04:04
nonlinear it was but then you you know
04:07
you’ve always been in the tech space the
04:09
more tech thing in particular I was
04:11
introduced to you through you’re kind of
04:14
famous I guess I would say tech
04:16
landscape PDF and it dawned on me
04:20
recently that that PDF is that do you
04:23
see that as a burden something people
04:25
like really want you to
04:27
continue but or is it something you
04:29
enjoy doing still that’s interesting
04:33
it’s it’s I’ll be honest it’s a bit of a
04:36
mix I mean it’s a lot of work to
04:39
maintain and I’ve now
04:41
yeah I’ve been very lucky to bring in a
04:44
couple other folks on and talker and you
04:49
know help with it but it is a lot of
04:51
work for me you know what is you know
04:54
some people would claim is really just
04:55
an eye chart I think the only reason I
04:58
kind of feel and by the way all the
05:01
things have bad things that people say
05:02
about it like hey okay this isn’t I mean
05:05
you know you can’t really use this to
05:07
decide anything right it’s just it’s
05:09
just a conversation piece and quite
05:11
frankly that’s all whatever was really
05:13
intended to be because it’s still a
05:16
really fascinating conversation I mean
05:18
we look at this evolution this explosion
05:20
of all this technology and even with so
05:24
many pundits and analysts makings really
05:27
good arguments as to why it should have
05:29
all consolidated to like six companies
05:31
by now the reality just isn’t that and I
05:35
think there’s something powerful about
05:37
this really seeing that it’s not just
05:40
like some sort of bar chart that says oh
05:42
this number of companies this year this
05:43
number of companies that you like
05:44
actually see the logos these are real
05:47
companies with real people real dollars
05:49
behind them and yeah I do think it opens
05:52
up some real interesting conversations
05:54
and I was fascinated with love-hate
05:58
relationship with all that is probably
06:00
anyone I mean I’ve found it it’s become
06:02
its own thing in a sense of every event
06:06
I go to somebody’s using it when they’re
06:08
talking as that the backdrop for their
06:10
slides and the first real interaction I
06:13
had with it was looking at it and saying
06:14
hey our company’s not on there how do I
06:16
get on there people are people are
06:19
thinking oh if you’re not on that chart
06:21
and you’re a Mar tech company then you
06:23
haven’t like that’s the first step to
06:25
recognition is getting on getting on
06:27
that chart and having people see your
06:29
logo amongst you know thousands of other
06:32
logos on in the background yeah I
06:35
appreciate that although in all fairness
06:37
I would say about half the times when
06:39
people come and say
06:40
hey my little go reason on there I like
06:42
have to blow it up and like zoom in on
06:44
thing I’m like actually you are makes
06:50
the point but but actually the other
06:52
side of that is a really good point
06:54
because again I get a lot of emails when
06:56
people I get two kinds of emails I get
06:58
emails from people saying aha Adobe just
07:02
purchased Marketo see your entire
07:04
landscape is going to consolidate down
07:07
but then in the same day I will get like
07:10
five emails from other companies you’re
07:12
like you know my logo isn’t on your
07:14
chart we’ve just launched this company
07:15
or we’ve got this company it’s got 90
07:17
million dollars in sales out of
07:18
Scandinavia and I’ve never heard of them
07:20
before you know and so it’s there’s a
07:24
lot of mardik out there the world yeah
07:27
we actually had a company come to us my
07:29
company mountaintop data provides data
07:31
for marketing campaigns and we’d already
07:33
done the work for ourselves but and then
07:36
you guys made it much easier recently
07:37
with this chart but back in the day we
07:39
would take this chart and hunt down
07:41
every company and collect information on
07:42
to make sure they were in our system and
07:44
flagged them asmar tech and people would
07:45
come to us and say we want the Mahr tech
07:47
database we want contacts in the mark
07:49
tech database so you know people were
07:52
using it to that extent and then we
07:55
would find that as many logos as you
07:57
have on there there’s many more that
07:59
still don’t make their way on there yes
08:01
like you said this is a hobby it’s not
08:03
like people are paying you a bunch of
08:04
money to create this chart and go out
08:06
there people pay us to create it so we
08:08
went out and we would find you know
08:10
every company on the chart and every
08:11
company we could that wasn’t on a chart
08:13
and it was just astounding as many as
08:15
you’ve collected there’s so many more
08:17
out there that’s just there’s so many
08:19
companies yeah and it’s interesting I
08:22
mean you know like one of the other
08:23
debates is like okay well where do you
08:25
draw the line like what is or isn’t a
08:28
mark tech okay because I know that that
08:39
is top of mind what really is what isn’t
08:42
you know even the media some of the
08:44
journalists are really trying to define
08:46
that yes Scott if you could settle them
08:47
three words or less they’ll be great
08:49
three words or maybe a haiku but let’s
08:54
even know here are three words marketers
08:57
use it you know that’s one reason is why
09:03
I’ve always had things like categories
09:06
for stuff like you know anti L marketing
09:08
management and some of those project
09:10
stuff is because even if you say oh well
09:12
okay that’s project management that
09:14
isn’t really marketing the truth is like
09:17
when you talk to marketing operations
09:18
teams that are trying to figure out the
09:20
stack and how software and you know the
09:22
whole team is working actually project
09:24
management then is a very deeply
09:26
integrate of how works and so yeah if
09:30
marketers use it I say it smart a that
09:32
that makes very much sense and
09:34
simplifies things down a lot I guess
09:35
people say but it’s this thing’s can be
09:37
more than one thing yes the labels don’t
09:42
matter I mean they do because we have
09:44
categorized things somehow this did make
09:46
the world make sense but for the most
09:48
part right it’s it’s not the labels from
09:50
the vendors or the analysts what comes
09:52
down to is okay how our marketing themes
09:54
really using this stuff in practice and
09:57
yeah that doesn’t always align with the
10:00
labels that the you know the industry
10:03
fund it’s those of us in it you know
10:05
tend to toss around labels that you
10:07
assigned everybody Scott you assign them
10:10
all a label label can we talk about some
10:16
of the most common you know Mar tech
10:19
uses there are and marketing technology
10:21
today and then you know what’s coming on
10:25
the horizon or you know the incipient
10:27
stages say a blockchain and things like
10:29
that oh yeah now I know we’re having a
10:32
real podcast about you know marketing
10:34
technology changes come up it well you
10:39
know III think they’re less maybe say
10:41
they’re like three levels to this
10:42
there’s sort of foundational systems and
10:45
to be honest
10:46
90% of what needs to happen at most
10:49
companies you can cover with these
10:50
foundational systems alright it’s like
10:52
having a good let’s call it a CRM you
10:55
know some sort of system of record you
10:57
know for prospects and customers
10:58
probably a marketing automation platform
11:02
that’s among other things you know
11:04
driving a lot of your emails and sort of
11:06
your you know
11:07
touch point you know campaign management
11:10
you almost certainly have some sort of
11:12
CMS you might call it like a digital
11:15
experience platform if we’re feeling
11:16
fancy but you know it’s a CNS it’s the
11:19
thing that’s driving your website if you
11:21
have commerce related stuff you know
11:23
okay there might be an e-commerce piece
11:25
hood but you know if you’re doing a lot
11:29
of ad tech stuff you might have you know
11:32
a vendor there but it’s a relatively
11:33
small subset of stuff that you say okay
11:35
these are the foundational systems you
11:37
need to get these right because if you
11:40
don’t I mean everything else is great
11:41
you know it just it doesn’t hold
11:43
together but then you start to the next
11:45
layer beyond that becomes more of these
11:47
point solutions you know like oh well
11:50
what do I use for event management you
11:53
know participate in trade show or run a
11:55
trade show what I use for influencers
11:59
management like right okay well more on
12:01
the influencer campaigns and keep track
12:03
of that oh maybe it’s not just
12:05
influencers I want to do this within my
12:08
own customers and so it’s going to be an
12:09
advocacy program that has loyalty
12:11
benefits associated with it you know and
12:15
you start to get into these really cool
12:16
specialized solutions and boy did it I
12:18
on there with interactive content things
12:21
like calculators and quizzes and
12:23
assessment tools you know I mean again
12:26
that as much as I would have liked
12:28
interactive content to be one of those
12:29
foundational systems it wasn’t it’s like
12:31
it makes sense once you’ve got your CMS
12:33
your CRM you’ve got your map then you
12:36
might add a point solution for
12:38
interactive content because it’s a very
12:40
it’s a more specialized set of
12:41
capabilities and then the third level
12:44
out there gets to the stuff of okay kind
12:47
of the emerging things you know the
12:48
stuff on the edge like blockchain you
12:52
know and blockchain is being used in a
12:53
few different ways right we’ve got
12:55
probably the most common use case right
12:57
now is using at least in the mark tech
12:59
world is using blockchain to bring a
13:01
little more transparency and
13:03
accountability to Antec so a lot of
13:07
blockchain based and exchanges that are
13:09
coming up so you can truly track where
13:11
ads went you know with some Authority
13:15
you also start to see some of this you
13:19
know block chain stuff happening
13:21
customers hide with like loyalty
13:22
programs and tracking transactions I
13:25
mean there’s a few cases there they’re
13:27
really clear other really interesting
13:31
ideas right like you know consumers
13:35
having the ability to rent their data to
13:38
marketers in exchange for getting paid
13:41
for it and the blockchain keeps track of
13:43
this and who’s used it pretty incredible
13:47
that’ll change the dynamic of marketing
13:49
as we know it right yeah no right I mean
13:51
you know this stuff is it’s kind of like
13:53
off air and a little bit of science
13:55
fiction land at the moment but if it
13:57
wouldn’t take a lot Texas Lee you know
13:59
it’s mostly almost like the social thing
14:01
that if that that were the tip you’re
14:03
absolutely right would this totally
14:05
disrupt the well I have a question
14:09
you know I read you know one in 40 of
14:12
the Inc 5000 list or Mar tech companies
14:14
out of those three categories what are
14:17
they in the main so they’re mostly the
14:20
first two right it’s a the so a bunch of
14:22
people trying to compete for these
14:24
foundational systems although to be
14:26
honest you know when you talk about
14:29
consolidation and Mar tech those are the
14:32
categories where kind of the
14:34
consolidated major platforms are
14:36
suddenly winning out because everything
14:38
else these are kind of accessories to
14:40
those platforms so they either build
14:42
them or kind of buy up the best ones
14:44
right yeah and I think what you
14:46
increasingly see is the point solutions
14:50
in order to escape being absorbed by a
14:54
major platform they do have to have some
14:56
story specialization whether it’s you
14:58
know functionally they’re just highly
15:00
specialized like the world’s most
15:01
specialized influence or management
15:03
program it’s not clear to me that
15:06
Salesforce Adobe Oracle HubSpot you know
15:10
come things like that would necessarily
15:11
want to own that it might be something
15:14
that yeah actually if there’s a vendor
15:15
out there who does that and they’re
15:17
amazing and they integrate with these
15:18
other ecosystems it’s probably a
15:20
healthier thing for everyone but then
15:23
the other way in which you get
15:24
specialization is sort of verticals
15:27
right I mean like you know people who
15:28
are doing you know advocacy around
15:34
you know associations you know I mean
15:38
then you start to gather these things
15:39
with the dynamics of the audience you’re
15:41
working with the environment in which
15:42
you’re working with people build things
15:45
are very unique to that and so yeah you
15:47
would never see like an Adobe or a
15:49
Salesforce or oracle try and like cater
15:52
to that market because actually the
15:53
scale of the market wouldn’t even make
15:54
sense very these multi-billion dollars
15:56
yeah I know I noticed a while back in
15:59
our business that the CRM I mean that’s
16:02
one of the foundational Martok’s and
16:04
there’s so many vertically specific CRMs
16:08
out there but you don’t realize it
16:10
unless you’re in the industry but
16:11
there’s a CMC CRM specifically for like
16:14
sawmills and certain types of
16:16
manufacturing and certain types of
16:18
retail and that you know there’s all
16:20
these little niche CRMs out there then
16:22
you’ve got your Salesforce and you got
16:24
your you know your major players but
16:25
yeah there are a lot of vertical niches
16:28
I guess with it with a lot of these
16:29
these Tech’s you guys you’re at HubSpot
16:32
and you have a chart that’s almost like
16:34
the mark tech chart of all these
16:36
solutions that connect to HubSpot now
16:38
I’m sure perhaps Bob probably owns some
16:40
of those or would absorb some of those
16:42
eventually but you know you have all
16:44
these accessories kind of that that make
16:46
the the larger platform kind of that
16:49
enhance it and that’s I guess where all
16:51
these these little these little mark
16:52
Tech’s come in to to accessorize the
16:54
larger player yeah again some of them
16:58
aren’t necessarily that little it’s just
17:01
there’s they go in a different dimension
17:03
you know then sort of what HubSpot the
17:14
video side we partnered with benyard
17:17
but there’s a whole collection of video
17:20
partners who’ve built infrastructure for
17:21
this all sorts of creative tools you
17:24
know using something like I don’t know
17:26
shaker you know to create video so just
17:29
it would make sense for HubSpot to be
17:32
trying to be really good at that because
17:34
it just goes in a very different kind of
17:36
direction
17:37
it’s a giant collaborative marketplace
17:39
when you open your platform up for
17:41
everybody to create things that
17:43
integrate with it you just know you’re
17:45
connected all the best ideas without
17:47
having to make them
17:47
in house I guess yeah and I think it’s
17:50
you know I mean the challenge with every
17:53
platform ecosystem is there is
17:56
inevitably this overlap between the
17:59
platform and the ecosystem it’s
18:00
constantly changing you know and I think
18:03
you know the way HubSpot takes this is
18:06
to just be very open and transparent
18:08
about it so we don’t exclude anyone from
18:12
our ecosystem like if we have someone
18:14
like for instance like we have a service
18:16
hub product that we release this year
18:20
but we are also super happy to have sin
18:22
deaths and help scaled and people like
18:24
that in our ecosystem because at the end
18:26
of the day we feel you know customers
18:29
value choice they don’t want to feel
18:33
like they’re forced to have to buy all
18:36
of everything from one company you know
18:39
it’s nice when you can give them you
18:41
know lots of options there but yeah they
18:43
want to control the choice and I think
18:46
that’s one of the secrets to making
18:48
these sort of platform ecosystem
18:50
dynamics work well for everyone
18:51
I love the companies do that one of the
18:54
things I’ve seen just with the Internet
18:55
in general and it’s kind of the news
18:57
right now so maybe you’ll speak to that
18:58
but it’s the the democratization of
19:01
technology and kind of opportunity where
19:04
you know back in the day if you wanted
19:06
to write music and knew how you could
19:08
just write music if you want to write a
19:09
book you could just write a book but you
19:11
couldn’t start you know a company you
19:14
you could create that content but now if
19:16
you can code and you have an idea you
19:19
can you know the barrier to entry is so
19:21
low and these marketplace exists where
19:23
companies like HubSpot companies like
19:25
Salesforce say yeah we’ll open our doors
19:28
and you can make something good will and
19:29
you can come into our marketplace and
19:31
it’s an open partner slash competition
19:34
all in one marketplace that’s just I
19:36
know it’s kind of it’s kind of Awesome
19:38
and then you have net neutrality coming
19:41
out and it you know that makes me think
19:42
about that it’s something that I feel
19:45
that open marketplace where it’s about
19:47
the ideas and not who can overcome the
19:49
the the hurdles and who can get you know
19:52
who can get over that initial barrier to
19:55
entry I think that’s the thing it’s like
19:57
you know so companies that get in a
19:59
position where they are
20:01
really monopolistic it is very hard for
20:05
them to resist the temptation of
20:07
basically behaving monopolistic but you
20:11
know most companies aren’t monopolies
20:14
and I think one of the things everyone
20:18
kind of recognizes in this world where
20:20
it’s not just software that sits off on
20:22
a box on its own and you know something
20:24
you know yeah data room and your company
20:27
anymore but it’s like stopping the cloud
20:29
with all this other stuff in the cloud
20:31
and you’re probably using something like
20:33
zapier to like you know move data from
20:36
one thing here to another thing over
20:38
there that yeah being open and not and
20:42
playing fair you know being a good
20:45
citizen with the rest of the you know
20:48
the cloud ecosystem out there that’s
20:51
what customers want and if you don’t do
20:52
it customers get annoyed with you you
20:54
know so I mean it is it’s not that super
20:56
altruistic think it’s like hey customers
20:59
want you to be open and interact and
21:00
work well with these other cools so yeah
21:03
if your customer centric that’s what you
21:06
do that’s awesome um I want to
21:08
transition back to kind of the original
21:09
topic here the the humans interacting
21:12
with more tech things see if we can dig
21:15
into that a little bit
21:16
you had mentioned in our before we came
21:19
on air here balancing centralization
21:21
versus decentralization as something we
21:24
wanted to go over and then yeah just the
21:26
automation versus human interaction Marv
21:28
tech tends to automate a lot of stuff
21:30
I’ve always thought that there’s two
21:32
kinds of products there’s the products
21:34
that say this exists now if you don’t
21:37
get it your competition has it and it
21:39
doesn’t really make your life better it
21:42
doesn’t really give you more leads
21:43
better marketing it’s just now there’s a
21:45
tool that you have to have it’s an arms
21:48
race kind of and it doesn’t get you
21:50
ahead it just allows you to keep up what
21:52
the other people have it and then
21:53
there’s the things that truly make your
21:54
life easier make your marketing better
21:56
yeah you know it’s interesting so the
21:59
exercise I went through for this we’ve
22:02
been preparing through the mark tech
22:04
conference that was earlier this week
22:06
you know I was trying to think like what
22:09
are the big challenges that marketing
22:12
tech and operations leaders
22:14
with I felt it was fell into two
22:17
categories one was just this constant
22:19
rate of change I mean oh my goodness
22:22
just everything nothing stand still you
22:26
know in this industry and for marketers
22:32
and you know operations people for sure
22:35
yeah right and it’s not just about the
22:37
more tech piece of that just the world
22:39
in general just doesn’t I mean like
22:41
Facebook is you know changing the rules
22:43
and now you know this is happening with
22:44
Instagram and oh my goodness we’ve got
22:47
these voice assistants that you know
22:49
we’re science fiction two years ago and
22:50
now you know 80% of the homes that were
22:53
trying to reach happen it’s like yeah so
22:56
it’s so dealing with change is really
22:59
hard and I think that’s maybe the number
23:01
one thing with marketing tech an ops
23:02
leader is wrestle with but the second
23:05
one and this is what I found so
23:06
fascinating is that usually the people
23:08
who being asked to balance these
23:11
seemingly paradoxical missions like you
23:17
know one of them is to you know like
23:19
centralize everything you can right so
23:22
we want to standardize the tools we’re
23:25
using you know like we don’t want three
23:27
different CRS go on one thing are people
23:29
that standardize on a marketing
23:31
automation tools you know standardize
23:34
some of the data to make sure you know
23:35
and that’s fine but at the same time a
23:39
lot of companies are also seeking to
23:43
decentralize capabilities right I mean
23:46
like if a marketer off you know in you
23:50
know Australia you know wants to put up
23:52
you know an ad and a landing page you
23:56
don’t want them to have to wait three
23:58
weeks to go through some central
24:00
authority to get that built and to get
24:02
that approved what you really want to do
24:03
is give them the tools that they can
24:04
self-serve they can get it into market
24:07
that afternoon they can test they can
24:08
learn they can iterate you know and
24:10
that’s not just happening for that
24:12
marketer that’s happening across your
24:14
entire organization with all these
24:16
different marketers and so part of what
24:19
you’re trying to do then in marketing
24:21
tech and operations is you’re like okay
24:22
well maybe we’d have a standardized CMS
24:25
and we’ll have standardized landing page
24:27
templates
24:28
a certain you know maybe standardized
24:31
tool for a/b testing but then part of
24:33
the benefit of doing that kind of
24:35
standardization as we want them to be
24:37
able to train and enable you know the
24:39
much larger marketing organization to
24:41
say hey go off and do frankly anything
24:45
you want as long as it’s within these
24:48
certain you know guardrails and so it’s
24:52
like you’re trying to both centralize
24:53
and the same time and it sounds
24:58
paradoxical but when you look at the
25:00
cases people are actually doing it it
25:02
starts to make sense what would you
25:04
recommend as you know advice for
25:07
marketers and operations that are
25:10
struggling with this to keep some sense
25:13
of sanity and semblance of you know like
25:17
a foundational basics while they’re
25:19
adapting to the change what would you
25:21
say yeah so again I think is there a
25:25
more tech that solves this there’s a
25:30
market for that yes I think Apple has
25:32
that copyright I actually think this is
25:36
one of the cases where less is more I
25:40
think in the centralization you want to
25:42
identify the handful of things that you
25:46
really get benefit from having
25:48
standardized and again I think like the
25:51
core customer record core customer
25:53
identity these are it’s that’s almost
25:55
non-negotiable you have to have that
25:58
standardized so that you can connect the
26:00
dots for all these different touch
26:02
points that you have with customers not
26:03
just in marketing right but when they
26:05
hand over to sales when you’re engaging
26:07
them with your customer success teams
26:10
things like content you know having
26:15
standardized assets standardized
26:18
templates you know I mean brand still
26:21
matters brand standards still matter and
26:24
it’s not just something from last
26:25
century and so you know getting the
26:27
mechanisms in place that when you start
26:29
to enable those frontline marketers and
26:33
other people at the edge of your
26:35
organization you know to do much more
26:38
personalized and highly targeted you
26:40
know campaigns
26:42
some sort of experience interaction
26:43
they’re having with customers but you
26:45
are giving them the tools to be to be
26:49
great at that
26:50
you know they that they have a lot of
26:54
freedom yeah you know within certain
26:56
dimensions you know for certain kinds of
26:58
messaging and creativity and testing
27:00
offers but there’s these other
27:02
dimensions like okay well the quality of
27:05
the actual you know page itself and you
27:08
know you know what links to was and
27:10
where do we collect the data from it you
27:12
know that these things that you wouldn’t
27:14
want high variation on you want those to
27:16
be standardized so I mean it’s not
27:20
rocket science it’s a piece of cake but
27:22
you know doing doing a few things
27:24
standardized really well and then
27:26
empowering you know the rest of the
27:28
marketing organization to leverage that
27:30
I feels like a pretty good place to
27:33
start so it seems like you’re saying if
27:35
you if the company is trying to lock
27:36
down their marketing team with Mar tech
27:40
they can stifle the creativity that’s
27:42
necessary to have successful campaigns
27:44
kind of yeah it’s funny it’s almost like
27:46
the problem marketing used to have with
27:48
IP right I mean it’s like oh well
27:50
marketing wants this they need to get
27:51
from i.t i.t says sure we’ll change the
27:53
website for you it will get to its next
27:56
January you know that’s one of the
27:58
reasons why marketing technology and
28:00
operations teams came into existence is
28:02
because marketing just couldn’t afford
28:04
to wait for but it’s ironic you now kind
28:07
of just push it down the thing it’s like
28:09
now you got these frontline marketers
28:10
who want to do things you know and
28:12
they’re like okay well the central mark
28:13
our ops team will try and get to that
28:15
next quarter and they’re like oh man I
28:17
can’t wait that long I’ve got numbers to
28:19
hit you know they just go out they find
28:21
a solution and the cloud they hook it up
28:23
to zapier and they’re like off in there
28:25
I mean they just traded it in for a new
28:27
IT department they have to wait for kind
28:28
of yeah and I think this is what where
28:31
things get really exciting if you can
28:33
try and look at it through this you know
28:34
centralizing and decentralizing at the
28:37
same time is marketing operations needs
28:41
to work really hard at not being a
28:43
bottleneck to the rest of the marketing
28:46
organization and I think the technology
28:48
is one of the solutions of that you know
28:51
so you send centralize you know serve in
28:54
the state
28:55
certain guardrails but then you turn
28:57
loose people to be able within those
28:59
guardrails to self-service themselves
29:02
for all sorts of marketing capabilities
29:04
I love it yeah that’s some good
29:07
actionable advice there get out of the
29:09
way your marketers and let them do their
29:11
job all right I want to take a quick
29:17
break here Scott
29:18
Carla Joe will step out for a minute and
29:21
then and then we’ll be right back to
29:23
talk more mark tech here with Scott
29:25
Brinker hey I’m out on the CEO its if
29:30
Drock we help b2b marketers manage all
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can find us at sifter comm alright we’re
29:55
back from break this is the if you
29:56
market podcast I’m your host sky Cassidy
29:58
I’ve got our co-host Carla Jo Helms here
30:01
and Scott Brinker of chief Mar tech is
30:04
here to talk more tech thanks for
30:06
joining us Scott yep glad to be back so
30:10
before the break talking tons of more
30:12
tech gonna talk tons more more tech of
30:13
course wanted to jump into a specific
30:16
subject here on the I think I mentioned
30:18
it before the break but the automation
30:20
versus human and interaction when it
30:22
when it comes to Mar tech I know I get a
30:24
lot of things that you could still tell
30:27
that they’re they’re automated they’re
30:28
trying to make them look human but can
30:31
you speak to that that’s up just a
30:32
little bit yeah right so where we were
30:35
earlier talking about this tension
30:36
between centralized and decentralized
30:38
and in some ways I see a very similar
30:41
tension between the desire to automate
30:44
as much as we can in marketing but also
30:47
to make sure we’re humanizing our
30:50
marketing that’s engaging with you know
30:53
actual real humans and it’s yeah it’s
30:56
it’s fascinating you know talking about
31:00
this the other day
31:01
like one of the best examples of the
31:04
good and the bad of automation
31:07
was 1944 Mickey Mouse if you remember
31:11
the movie Fantasia and The Sorcerer’s
31:14
Apprentice right so he gets laid you
31:21
know he doesn’t want carry the water
31:22
himself so magic wand and aha you know
31:24
we get the broom to carry the water and
31:27
that’s good until all of a sudden
31:29
there’s like you know dozens and then
31:30
hundreds of rooms all carrying water
31:32
they just won’t stop and just you know
31:33
so it’s funny it’s like oh yeah like
31:35
that would never happen but meanwhile
31:37
I’m not sure if you saw there was a
31:38
cartoon from Tom’s Fishburne market to
31:42
nest I loved his stuff you know a of
31:44
this cartoon a couple weeks back where
31:46
it was like right out of FD inbox like
31:49
it’s like I’m the special offer for you
31:51
why haven’t you responded to my email
31:53
just trying again haven’t heard from you
31:55
yet are you okay you know is that hip oh
31:58
no it’s like you know you look at this
32:00
like string of emails and you’re like oh
32:02
my god this like you know I hope it’s
32:05
not a human sending those out but in
32:07
some ways it’s been worse yeah that’s
32:09
getting played out as it should
32:11
here’s the thing it’s the fact that it’s
32:13
been around for now so long and it’s so
32:16
an it was pretty much annoying from the
32:18
beginning but like it’s so automated now
32:21
I didn’t recognize right because when
32:24
you set the automatic in you know it’s
32:26
it’s no sweat off as a marketer to do
32:29
that and so I one of the ways I think
32:32
about this play it’s like oh I didn’t
32:33
mean to you know like hit you it’s ass
32:36
and emails I just was even thinking
32:38
about it so one of the things I think
32:40
about here is like all right if you
32:42
imagine a two by two little academic is
32:46
if we talked about earlier okay a two by
32:49
two and on one axis it’s like okay is it
32:53
efficient for the company or inefficient
32:56
for the company and then the other axis
32:58
is is it efficient for the customer or
33:00
is it inefficient for the customer and
33:03
hey listen if it’s inefficient for the
33:05
company and the customer that’s just a
33:07
crappy experience if it’s efficient for
33:11
the company and efficient for the
33:13
customer it’s like totally awesome in
33:15
some cases we have things that are
33:17
efficient for the customer but they’re
33:20
not efficient for the company
33:21
but those might actually be okay
33:23
depending on what they are because right
33:25
like if you think about you know brand
33:27
touch points where there’s some sort of
33:29
special service or you know we’re making
33:31
an exception for someone we’re going out
33:33
of our way
33:33
to build that relationship it might not
33:36
have been efficient but it might win us
33:38
a customer for life it might be well
33:39
worth it and if it’s a high enough value
33:41
product then yeah you can fly the two
33:43
women by mistake dinner that’s not super
33:45
efficient but you know for a dollar
33:48
ninety-nine product exactly so maybe you
33:50
weren’t that it may not but you know at
33:51
least that’s a quadrant where you could
33:53
consider it the one that gets really
33:55
scary is the one where you have things
33:58
that become super efficient through the
34:00
company and they’re really inefficient
34:02
for the customer and part of the problem
34:05
with automation is because automation
34:08
tends to be such an inward driven
34:10
activity it’s very easy for us to look
34:13
at oh well these are all the
34:14
inefficiencies inside our company hey
34:16
well let’s let’s make all these things
34:19
automated may I’m super impatient
34:20
without actually thinking through the
34:23
consequences of making more inefficient
34:28
like now I have to delete like 50 emails
34:31
from you instead of just one it’s not
34:33
helping so yeah it seems to be the
34:36
favorite marketing technique for
34:37
software-as-a-service they said you know
34:39
what would be great no sales team will
34:41
just set up these Cadence’s and just let
34:43
them run and try to make them look
34:45
personal and then everybody does it and
34:47
marketing does this all the time but
34:49
usually it takes longer I feel like with
34:51
Mark tech now marketing comes up with an
34:53
idea and then we kind of crap it out so
34:55
much faster by crap it out I mean just
34:57
kind of play it out you know everybody
34:58
does it so much so often that it gets
35:01
just played out so much faster now so
35:04
that’s why I think like the really great
35:06
marketing technology and operations
35:08
leaders are the ones there and take a
35:10
customer centric view and they’re gonna
35:12
say okay yes we want to make things
35:14
efficient or the company but every
35:18
single thing we automate that way we are
35:20
also going to evaluate very carefully
35:23
for hey is this making like better for
35:25
our customers or is it making it worse
35:27
and worse we’re not gonna move forward
35:30
with that until we figure out a way to
35:31
get those two things in the line and the
35:33
other thing they should do too is they
35:35
should pilot something before they do it
35:37
on all of their customers to make sure
35:39
right absolutely and that speaks to the
35:42
decentralization yeah thing right it’s
35:44
like you you want these little
35:45
experiments happening you know sort of
35:47
on the edge of the organization and then
35:49
yeah most you know some of them will
35:51
work some of them won’t but yeah yeah
35:53
it’s like the only the ones that said
35:55
you know work and get proven over time
35:57
are the ones you want to scale up it no
35:59
I speed it seems like account-based
36:02
marketing is kind of a backlash against
36:04
more tech but then Maur tech went out
36:06
and built everything for account based
36:08
marketing they’re like this weird
36:10
paradox of hey it’s account base you got
36:13
to get personal with them and here’s the
36:14
Mahr tech to manage it for you so you
36:16
don’t have to get personal with them
36:18
yeah it’s it’s really interesting so
36:21
four years right I mean sales people
36:24
were the ones who actually don’t
36:27
face-to-face with the customer and
36:28
marketing they were account based
36:30
marketing yeah all sales people shake
36:32
their heads and say what are you talking
36:33
about but the thing for marketers is you
36:40
know I mean they were always in the
36:42
business of mass communications and so
36:46
like to have this idea of these very
36:47
high-level personas and these very broad
36:50
horizontal like tactics you know I mean
36:53
that made sense that’s what marketing
36:54
was but now what has happened is through
36:57
the technology you know marketers are
37:00
now in a position where they can have
37:01
these highly specialized interactions
37:04
you know with individuals but the truth
37:07
is most marketers don’t spend a lot of
37:09
time with those individuals they don’t
37:11
they don’t go and visit these customers
37:14
they don’t understand the context they’d
37:15
never actually sat where that you know
37:18
customer is receiving the stream of 50
37:20
emails and mailing yeah now that I look
37:22
at that way that does kind of suck
37:24
doesn’t it and so I think if we’re you
37:26
know we’re gonna have this more
37:27
personalized marketing we’re gonna have
37:30
you know things like account based you
37:32
know mental models you know get brought
37:35
to you know marketing technology and
37:38
marketers need to get out from the
37:39
office and spend more time just meeting
37:42
customers face-to-face yeah so creating
37:44
an AI to handle your personal inner
37:46
it’s a little uh it’s a little little
37:50
counterproductive
37:50
I guess well and that’s just again it’s
37:54
just about making sure we it’s not that
37:57
we don’t want to automate and that we
37:58
don’t want to find efficiencies for the
38:00
company it’s just that we don’t want to
38:01
do it in a vacuum where it’s somehow
38:06
disconnected from the impact that’s
38:09
going to have on the very people that
38:11
yeah we really want to win over
38:13
excellent so a question for you to
38:15
general Mar tech I ask this of a lot of
38:17
people that I realize if there’s anybody
38:19
in the world to ask this it should be
38:20
you do you have a favorite Mar tech
38:23
stack Oh anyone that works for you is
38:26
pretty good at my book actually I don’t
38:29
I mean I’m incredibly tool agnostic in
38:33
fact you know my background probably not
38:36
surprising is you know the nerdiness you
38:38
know as an engineer and boy before
38:40
marketing right you know is the software
38:42
engineers that always have these
38:43
religious wars of you know oh well do
38:45
you like Java or do you like C++ I’m
38:48
like man whatever like helps you build a
38:51
great piece of software that you like I
38:54
mean yes I’m very agnostic on it in an
38:58
abstract level and I think then within a
39:00
particular company whichever set of
39:02
tools you get scary or they write tools
39:05
for you or you using them well and then
39:08
something personal um about you
39:10
particularly you always seem extremely
39:13
happy is that like every time I see you
39:17
anywhere every photo you just seem like
39:19
such a happy guy what’s the secret I
39:23
don’t know why I you know part probably
39:27
because I really do find this marta tech
39:29
stuff fascinating i mean it’s such an
39:31
exciting time to see like this entire
39:35
profession rethinking what is possible i
39:39
mean it’s not about the tax per se right
39:41
it’s the fact that you know marketing
39:43
and a lot of organizations for a long
39:45
time was kind of the redheaded stepchild
39:48
it was like oh yeah yeah they’re the
39:49
arts and crafts people and you know yeah
39:51
yeah they’ll do some ads and you know
39:53
spend some money on some big you know
39:55
wasted sponsorship or whatever yeah it’s
39:57
it’s like they weren’t at the table they
39:59
were
39:59
like the ones generally there are a few
40:02
exceptions in a major CPG but for most
40:04
companies like marketing wasn’t at the
40:06
seat at the table but now I mean wow I
40:10
mean marketing has become the hub around
40:13
which this entire new customer
40:15
experience mentality for organizations
40:17
is being organized and to see this
40:19
transformation of this entire profession
40:23
and as a result to live up to those
40:25
opportunities and those expectations the
40:28
premium of like all these talents where
40:30
you know you’re mixing the best of
40:32
creatives with now the best of
40:35
technologists you know and really top
40:37
thinking strategy and how do we do this
40:40
in a Design Thinking way and I mean this
40:43
is just seriously full of stuff
40:45
and so yeah I get to participate in this
40:48
and talk with you know like you
40:52
basically you love what you what you do
40:55
yeah I mean you’re doing this to wind
40:57
down from I have a personal question for
41:04
you maybe not what do you personally
41:06
think is on the horizon like the trend
41:10
form our tech that we’re gonna be seeing
41:12
in the next two to five years Oh
41:14
so I think there’s two things I mean
41:17
there’s a lot but I’ll pick two so one
41:21
is I think this explosion of different
41:23
kinds of touch points to customers is
41:27
really now starting to take off in a big
41:30
way and that what what I mean by that is
41:31
like for a long time digital meant the
41:34
website or the website and email was the
41:36
website and email and social on the
41:38
website and email and social and mobile
41:39
and now the website the email mobile and
41:41
social now we’ve got chat bots now voice
41:44
assistants and hey what’s happening here
41:45
were they or Andy are now these Internet
41:47
of Things you know like smart devices
41:50
that used to be sort of you know science
41:52
fiction you know edge of you know the
41:55
market now they’re starting to get mass
41:57
adoption right the Amazon microwave that
42:00
even though you talk to now I mean all
42:02
these things I mean you think about all
42:04
the work that has gone into the past 20
42:07
25 years at marketers trying to
42:09
understand oh how do we create good
42:11
customer experiences on our web
42:13
site in fact actually if you go to all
42:15
our websites you realize we still
42:16
haven’t quite mastered that one we’ve
42:17
got a ways to go for a lot of company
42:19
but great I mean a lot of work has gone
42:21
into like figuring that out and that was
42:23
just and everybody went through their
42:27
flash phase where you go to a website
42:28
you got to sit for a while wait for
42:30
their flash thing to finish yes and
42:32
that’s kind of the early stage where and
42:33
now with so many of these new kinds of
42:35
testing so I think there’s a tremendous
42:37
amount of creative opportunity for
42:41
marketers yeah in the in the next five
42:44
years so there’s that then the second
42:49
one I’ll say is you know and this is a
42:51
little biased with what I’m doing at
42:53
HubSpot but actually the reason that
42:56
HubSpot is because I believe in this
42:57
vision is I think the landscape is going
43:00
to start to get organized around
43:03
platforms and ecosystems in a really
43:05
strong way so I think this will make
43:07
life easier for marketers because I
43:09
think you will select one or maybe two
43:12
major platforms to become the tentpole
43:15
of your stack and then they will have
43:18
worked with you know the rest of the
43:20
ecosystem to get these really tight
43:22
integrations so that you as a marketer
43:24
then you’re like oh well I want to plug
43:26
in these you know six other things of
43:28
these ten other things it really becomes
43:30
sort of a click to add kind of like you
43:32
do for apps on your iPhone that just
43:34
fits in and it just works and it’s in
43:37
the interface and your data is
43:38
synchronized we’re not we’re not quite
43:41
there yet but every single major
43:44
platform company I know is working in
43:47
that direction and I think you play this
43:49
out over the next two to three years
43:51
actually that landscapes gonna get a lot
43:53
easier for marketers to navigate and so
43:56
I’m pretty excited about that
43:57
great so Scott I’m I’m guessing guys
44:01
like you you probably have a dozen ideas
44:03
in your head all the time for first a
44:05
company somebody could create if you
44:08
were to you know either advise somebody
44:11
looking they didn’t know what they
44:12
wanted to do let’s say somebody’s in the
44:13
startup world now I don’t know what I
44:15
want to do but I want to do something in
44:16
mark tech what what do you think they
44:18
should create what area or what specific
44:20
you know function tool Mart X should
44:24
they create well I’ll answer
44:27
lightly pan gentle way but I think it
44:30
would be the advice I would give someone
44:31
who’s interested in serving a market
44:33
company is go sit with some marketers
44:39
for a month I mean doing anthropological
44:44
study because the funny thing is you
44:46
know I mean so much tech gets created
44:47
because someone you know has an idea on
44:50
a whiteboard on their own and they’ll be
44:52
really cool and this is and you know and
44:53
they go to bring it to market and then
44:55
they have to try and convince you know
44:57
people that really you want this you
45:00
didn’t know you wanted this but trust me
45:01
you really do want this and even if it’s
45:03
a great thing it’s just it’s hard you
45:05
know versus I think just what was it
45:07
four steps to the Epiphany Steve Blank
45:09
right this was part of his age this like
45:11
you know actually start with the
45:13
customer and just spend time with them
45:16
and look at like wow where is their pain
45:18
point what are they trying to do that’s
45:20
hard for them are taking lots of stances
45:22
and efficient or they’re like oh man
45:24
this sucks you know and if you sue with
45:26
enough different focuses well hooah
45:27
target audiences and you start to see a
45:29
pattern of like well actually ah you
45:32
know nine out of ten marketers I said
45:34
with you know like they’re wasting you
45:35
know fifteen percent of their day with X
45:37
man if I could do something that could
45:39
solve that whoa they buy that in a
45:42
heartbeat I think there’s a lot of
45:45
opportunity for that so I might call
45:47
this the through the wall startup
45:49
technique you’re saying you just you go
45:50
to a company you sit on the other side
45:52
of the wall from a marketer and in the
45:54
first time you hear you come running it
45:59
and say what happens how do I fix it and
46:02
there’s your product yes replicate that
46:05
you know maybe a couple dozen times you
46:06
know so it’s not sample size of one yeah
46:09
if you get two dozen companies that
46:11
they’re all having marketers with you
46:13
know that same you know primeval cry
46:16
then yeah okay
46:21
I’ve got let me see I’ve got a couple
46:24
more things here I want to make sure we
46:26
get to Carla Joe do you have anything
46:28
you want to jump in with before I kind
46:30
of steamroll forward here no I love the
46:33
feedback on you know always trying to
46:35
figure out you know how to keep the
46:37
humanization in with the automation
46:39
you know what’s coming down the pike
46:43
I think that’s critically important to
46:45
know and I’m sure that the game will be
46:48
how to dovetail all of these together so
46:50
it’s not a hodgepodge and we have better
